# 6 skills CCP should remove to drastically improve NPE **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 27, 2022, 8:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542 "2022-03-27T08:42:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/83 "2022-04-01T17:01:17Z")
**Delayed gratification** , or **deferred gratification** , is the resistance to the temptation of an immediate pleasure in the hope of obtaining a valuable and long-lasting reward in the long-term. In other words, delayed gratification describes the process that the subject undergoes when the subject resists the temptation of an immediate reward in preference for a later reward. Generally, delayed gratification is associated with resisting a smaller but more immediate reward in order to receive a larger or more enduring reward later.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_gratification#cite_note-Carducci-1) A growing body of literature has linked the ability to delay [gratification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratification) to a host of other positive outcomes, including [academic success](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_success), physical health, [psychological health](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_health), and [social competence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_competence). ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/84 "2022-04-01T17:04:34Z")
The financial industry is adept at tapping into this, promising future profits in exchange for money today. More and more, it looks like a that will not be a positive outcome. The same as my 150 million Eve skill points. ---
**Author:** ![Jumpdrive](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jumpdrive/32/285032_2.png) [@Jumpdrive](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jumpdrive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/85 "2022-04-01T17:04:40Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > You can only be a spoiled brat (aka assertive) when most of society is hard working and patient. But yes, you have a point; assertiveness is working well right now. Spoiled and assertive are not the same things. Assertiveness can come from a place of knowing your worth and looking for fairness. Working hard is not always wise. You also have to look at what you are getting in return. In the case of a videogame: you basically get nothing for your grind. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/86 "2022-04-01T17:26:35Z")
> [@DragoFire](#): > > I think half the complaints are players want core skills to level5 without having to spend the time trajnjng them. > > Instant reward for no effort. Eve is like joining in a game of Monopoly half way through…and every property already has hotels on it, all the stations are owned, and yet vets complain if noobs get the equivalent of a ‘get out of jail free’ card. ---
**Author:** ![Jumpdrive](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jumpdrive/32/285032_2.png) [@Jumpdrive](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jumpdrive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/87 "2022-04-01T17:56:08Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Eve is like joining in a game of Monopoly half way through…and every property already has hotels on it, all the stations are owned, and yet vets complain if noobs get the equivalent of a ‘get out of jail free’ card. The guys with the “Hotels” in EVE are actually the players who are to be the most pitied. You don’t ever want to play their game. Not only is it the wrong time, you don’t ever want to get to where they are now. They are hopelessly TRAPPED in a terrible investment. A boring chore to maintain and a massive sunk cost of hard work, patience and dollars is what all the big stuff is. Right now if you recently joined this game, you’ll want to put in only a minimal amount of time or $ and get to the simple entertainment fast. Less ISK to grind, fewer skills to wait on and faster results. Cheap ships, no structures, is the way. Base out of high sec and do things like frigate PvP in low sec, exploration anywhere, or even do what Safety does in high sec. Then decide if you want to keep doing that, or easily move on with only a little lost. ---
**Author:** ![Apo\_Bong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/apo_bong/32/512751_2.png) [@Apo\_Bong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Apo_Bong)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/88 "2022-04-01T22:53:47Z")
Sorry just looked at first few posts, but from one of those mean multiboxers most EVE players hate: Most of those skills listed prevent me from easily getting up to nefarious things. Right now for most (undocked) jobs a character needs atleast some of those skills. Cybernetics 5 is required for any character skillfarming. As you know, most people sustain accounts via skill extracting. Even with 1mio SP from recruit a friend, you need to get atleast one character 5.5mil, which costs quite a bit. Every bit of training time on that account has to be paid for, since every minute you don’t train the skillfarm, you will not be able to offset the cost. Now every bit of SP taken away from this investment a player has to make this new character effective at whatever job it is designed for, also means more of stuff most people are not big fans of. In my practical case that would mean any of my new gankers don’t have to train (not exact numbers): PGM ~250k SP CPUmanagement ~250k SP Cybernetics ~700sp People in EVE scale everything to the max, with the current system CCP has something like this: Either pay us IRL $ or you pay ingame money. Personally I think the entry into ganking is too high (cost of $ or ISK to get characters ready to do it), but measures like this would probably make multiboxing too easy when looked at on bigger numbers. But I agree, skills like PGM & CPU management are just annoying blocks for new players. It’s training time they could be doing towards things that are actually promising fun. I think this is something that meets another problem, the (still) poor ‘new player experience’. I think if the Sister of EVE arc would get replaced/remade with modern MMO’s in mind, they could simply add SP rewards for players doing content. You could either lock this to specific newbro skills, preventing abuse by people just spamming characters, or could give out SP outright like login rewards. But that hypothetical new ‘after tutorial’-content would need to be fun, highly interactive, educational on EVE mechanics etc. basically the opposite of the current terrible mission mechanics. If you want to hand out SP and reduce the time newbros have to train ‘must have skills’, atleast couple that with content that teaches EVE in a meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![DragoFire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragofire/32/257926_2.png) [@DragoFire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DragoFire)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 2:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/89 "2022-04-02T02:23:39Z")
Just for interest, i made a new character a couple years ago, within those two years it can fly and use amost everything my main can fly and use. Now that being said, it by no means has the full benefits that my main has. It has most required skills to lvl3 with a few required for specific ship and modules that require lvl5 skills. All i did was train it the same way i suggect to newbros that ask for help and advise. This allowed the character trained fast than my main that started back in 2004 when we had limited skills, no skill point rewards, injectors or Cerebral Accelerators. And without making the poor decisions i made the first time around. So the core skills aren’t really an issue. Its how you train. I think someone suggested CCP add to the training missions skill training directions for each career path provided, sure if a newbro decides not to do them, then there’s little you xan do until they ask for help or advise. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 10:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/90 "2022-04-02T10:16:21Z")
> [@Jumpdrive](#): > > Assertiveness definitely. Assertiveness would be buying skill injectors either with RL money or by grinding the isk. That’s not what’s happening in this thread. > [@Jumpdrive](#): > > Spoiled and assertive are not the same things. Nor is patience the same thing as a job. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/91 "2022-04-02T10:47:18Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > and yet vets complain if noobs get the equivalent of a ‘get out of jail free’ card. That’s not what they are complaining about. The problem with the ‘get out of jail free card’ is that it is detrimental to the game experience. Progression/delayed gratification is known to get players to invest time into a game by making them feel more powerful over time. It’s also a useful tool for gradually introducing ever more complex or challenging features/content to a player so they can learn in small chunks. Get out of jail free cards like skill injectors, buying sp, log-in rewards, skilling spree, have not improved the NPE. They’ve made it worse. Some are even gimmicks to make you spend money quickly before you realise your mistake. Others are grindy mechanics that push players to log-in when they normally wouldn’t or partake in activities they don’t want to rather than letting the players decide for themselves what they want to do and when based on the content of the game. That’s what older players are complaining about. That CCP are preying on your ignorance and impatience. New players used to train twice as fast as vets until they reached a certain point. Just plain double training speed. No vet complained about that. ---
**Author:** ![Arumi\_Liz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arumi_liz/32/276823_2.png) [@Arumi\_Liz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arumi_Liz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/92 "2022-04-02T11:23:46Z")
I’m against this and would rather they ceased dumbing down the game. NPE is a poor excuse to continue killing eve with a thousands little cuts. Eve should be getting more complex and skills are a part of that complexity. Eve becoming simple and one-dimensional hurts it in the long run ---
**Author:** ![Pakur\_Saris](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pakur_saris/32/313615_2.png) [@Pakur\_Saris](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pakur_Saris)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/93 "2022-04-02T14:36:55Z")
I actually did this. It’s amazing how much enjoyment I am getting out of playing very low SP toons. I have actually found the game a challenge and fun again. The NPE is a good start but there is still an enormous amount of explanation that does not happen and is needed. Telling a 2 week old player to head to null sec is stupid. They have no idea and simply get ganked and have to rely on people being nice to them to survive. Similarly, letting a new toon with no experience get 20M in sp and somehow get a Rorqual is just silly as well. The mission systems desperately needs reworking to add to the NPE experience. Based on my experience, the first three months of Eve should be focusing on understanding the mechanics, the modules and the skills and working out what you want to do. There is a huge gap between NPE, Sisters of Eve arc and what comes next. . ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/94 "2022-04-02T17:28:21Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Progression/delayed gratification is known to get players to invest time into a game by making them feel more powerful over time. It is _way_ too long a time. With some things the progress is fast…for example within a few weeks I increased DPS on my ships by 50% or more. But with other things progress is agonisingly slow, especially if one is training multiple skills at the same time. I can understand older players not wanting noobs to get an easier time of it than they did. But the fact is that the game is ( by virtue of having been around so long ) now full of vastly experienced players who have an advantage precisely due to having been around so long. The average noob _needs_ to catch up quickly…whether that is ‘fair’ or not. In my view the future of the game depends on it. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/95 "2022-04-02T17:38:27Z")
> [@Pakur\_Saris](#): > > I actually did this. It’s amazing how much enjoyment I am getting out of playing very low SP toons. I have actually found the game a challenge and fun again. I’m getting huge experience simply blapping npc rats in highsec over and over. Boring and repetitive, and yet I have learned a _huge_ amount from it. Ratting in a safe system finally gave me the chance to practice warp scrambling, warp core stabilisation, auto targetting…and above all using the tactical display. I learned how useless I was at dealing with multiple targets…and developed a strategy for that. And so on. These are all things that SP dont give you. I think far more important than SP _is_ that ability to have a place one can just practice and learn. Those are the _real_ skills. Noobs should be caged up in some practice area for at least a month before they are ever let loose on the world. That would be _the_ best thing CCP could do. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/96 "2022-04-02T18:01:42Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > The average noob _needs_ to catch up quickly…whether that is ‘fair’ or not. In my view the future of the game depends on it. There is no ‘need’ to catch up. As newbie I once thought the same thing. However you will notice that once you have ‘caught up’ you will… well you never really get to that point. EVE training is a near endless route along a lot of different playstyles and even 5 years into that route I’m learning new skills and training new things and have a training queue of more than a year ahead of me with new things I’d like to be able to fly. Don’t try to hurry to the destination - it is the route that is a large part of the game. If training time is cut, you’ll be cutting part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/97 "2022-04-02T18:05:44Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > But the fact is that the game is ( by virtue of having been around so long ) now full of vastly experienced players who have an advantage precisely due to having been around so long. The average noob _needs_ to catch up quickly…whether that is ‘fair’ or not. I was around for the Learning Skill forum debates, where similar arguments were had. They were debated on the merits of those specific skills and _not_ a general “newbs catching up more quickly”. Advocating for the latter fundamentally changes the kind of gamer you’re wishing to market Eve Online to – instead of a player that appreciates planning and preparation, one that wants instant gratification and adrenaline around every corner. The “vets” you consistently malign are simply people in the former category, who would simply quit if Eve Online was turned into EVErymmo Online. It is not about “punching down at newbs” but “_growing_ an appreciation for what Eve Online has to offer _within_ newbies”. And that made for a far more compelling argument why the Learning skills (specifically) got in the way. Your general view to “have newbs catch up” is not a good enough principle to follow because it highly risks destroying the spirit of rewarding gamers capable of long-term preparation & planning, and there’s not a great deal on the gaming market that offers that today with full PVP. Which is why you’ll keep getting bitter responses the longer you stick to this line of thought. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I’m getting huge experience simply blapping npc rats in highsec over and over. Boring and repetitive, and yet I have learned a _huge_ amount from it. I recall once being told by a pilot on these forums named Cilly that personal experiences don’t matter. It would be nice to learn they had a change of heart one day. ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/98 "2022-04-02T18:07:27Z")
> [@Verlyn](#): > > Soon a game without Skills and just ships for an improved NPE !! As far as I can tell, this is the actual goal. Remove the skill tree as we know it, or at least create a secondary tree based on buying temporary access to ships to go alongside the option of the long train skill tree. Every change I see lately is to make Eve more like Star Citizen. The most frustrating part then, is how CCP keeps pretending this _isn’t_ their intent, but then turns around and makes another change going in this direction. It’s an abusive relationship through and through. Honestly at this point, I just wish CCP would come out and say it, full stop, so at least then we can stop this bs pretending this isn’t the end goal and instead start lobbying to at least get some fun new ships or something out of it if they’re going to kill the game as it was anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/99 "2022-04-02T18:09:19Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > The average noob _needs_ to catch up quickly…whether that is ‘fair’ or not. In my view the future of the game depends on it. This is an emotional manipulation CCP preys on you with to get you to open your wallet. You are both eternally caught up and forever behind in Eve. There will always be somebody better or more prepared to do something than you, and you will always be more well positioned/knowledgeable than someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/100 "2022-04-02T18:24:49Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The “vets” you consistently malign are simply people in the former category, who would simply quit if Eve Online was turned into EVErymmo Online. It is not about “punching down at newbs” but “_growing_ an appreciation for what Eve Online has to offer _within_ newbies”. And that made for a far more compelling argument why the Learning skills (specifically) got in the way. > > Your general view to “have newbs catch up” is not a good enough principle to follow because it highly risks destroying the spirit of rewarding gamers capable of long-term preparation & planning, and there’s not a great deal on the gaming market that offers that today with full PVP. Which is why you’ll keep getting bitter responses the longer you stick to this line of thought. I’m not ‘maligning’ anyone…simply pointing out that you have the whole issue of ‘fairness’ round the wrong way. Eve is like a game of Monopoly where a new player joins in half way through and all the properties already have hotels on them and all the stations, etc, are already owned. _Of course_ the owners of those hotels, etc, like things just the way they are…and to maintain the status quo. _Of course_ the vets like their nice little…erm…monopoly. Who wouldn’t ! But then someone suggests maybe noobs should get extra ‘get out of jail free’ cards…or maybe get $400 when passing ‘GO’…tiny changes that don’t affect the vets at all yet allow the noobs to at least survive, and its like ’ I didn’t get an arrow in the knee at the Battle Of Caldari Prime only to see noobs get given unfair advantages !’ Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/101 "2022-04-02T18:27:56Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Eve is like a game of Monopoly where a new player joins in half way through and all the properties already have hotels on them and all the stations, etc, are already owned. So wait, there are no asteroid belts you can mine, missions you can run, sites you can explore, moons you can put structures on, planets you can PI, _ANYTHING_ because they’re all owned and have hotels on them? ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542/102 "2022-04-02T18:41:13Z")
> [@Kenrailae](#): > > So wait, there are no asteroid belts you can mine, missions you can run, sites you can explore, moons you can put structures on, planets you can PI, _ANYTHING_ because they’re all owned and have hotels on them? There you have the first problem. The skills time required to get a barge and mine _decently_ cuts into the skill time required to get combat missions done. Vets go on as if people want ‘instant gratification’…but a month is a loooong time when one is just starting a game and trying to muster up some sense of commitment. I’m simply being vocal about the noob experience while I can still recall it accurately. Someone needs to. This _is_ how noobs see the game. For every vocal noob there’s 9 who don’t bother, and 90 who quietly left. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/6-skills-ccp-should-remove-to-drastically-improve-npe/355542.md?page=6)