# A Critique of historical Imperial Reclaiming Policy **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [August 24, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429 "2017-08-24T13:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/1 "2017-08-24T13:56:11Z")
Many Minmatar people labour under the impression that they have been hard done by over the past centuries. Let us examine the facts. Firstly it is known that the Empire began taking Minmatar slaves some one thousand years ago, following the darkest day in Minmatar history, rather prosaically called “The Day Of Darkness”. It is also known that the Minmatar slave population in the Empire was continually reinforced by fresh levies of slaves for several hundred years. Now then, it is the stated purpose of The Reclaiming is to “cultivate the spirit of man”, to redeem the heathens and all that. Which is all well and good, however the reinforcement levies work directly against that goal. By constantly reinjecting unreclaimed bloodlines into the Minmatar slave population, it dilutes the reclaiming that had already taken place, slowing down the overall reclamation. Counterproductive. The results of this can be seen in the Empress Jamyl’s Emancipation Proclamation, where only a small proportion of the Minmatar met the 9th generation criterion. Indicating that the Reclaiming so far had been largely diluted. So, objectively, One can say that the Minmatar Reclaiming had been mishandled. Compare and contrast with the Udorian, Khanid, and Ni-Kunni and even the Ealurian Reclaimings, where the entirety of the heathen populations were enslaved in one swoop, and whose Reclaiming has arguably been a complete success. Thusly we can see that the Reclaiming policy has been flawed for a succession of Emperors, and it may be argued that it is still flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Tarqeus\_Prime](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tarqeus_prime/32/85730_2.png) [@Tarqeus\_Prime](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tarqeus_Prime)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/2 "2017-08-24T18:13:54Z")
Interesting opinion on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Casserina\_Leshrac](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/casserina_leshrac/32/310487_2.png) [@Casserina\_Leshrac](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Casserina_Leshrac)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/3 "2017-08-24T21:50:33Z")
Which is why a submit that if there is to be any sort of Reclaiming of the Matari peoples Empress Catiz will use the economic might of the Empire. Kor-Azor Diplomats negotiate the contracts and Tash-Murkon Merchants flood the markets of the Republic with their good and maybe sneak in a missionary or two to convert the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/4 "2017-08-25T00:13:39Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > Many Minmatar people labour under the impression that they have been hard done by over the past centuries. > > Let us examine the facts. Fact: Involuntary slavery is an abuse and a crime against humanity. Fact: the Amarr are guilty of this crime. Fact: It needs to end, or the Empire needs to be ripped down and all of those who perpetuate this crime put to the sword. Fact: Also willing to use bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/5 "2017-08-25T02:11:58Z")
Fact: Miz somehow considers Arrendis an “appeaser.” … I have no idea why. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/6 "2017-08-25T04:02:55Z")
Pilot Valate it should be noted that genocide, forced conversion, mass kidnapping and cultural imperialism are still inherently evil whether done by small degrees or en masse. And since when are blooders in favor of imperial orthodoxy? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/7 "2017-08-25T04:56:47Z")
Because I’d _prefer_ the Empire wise up, rather than advocating that we go rushing in _right now_ and get the rest of our people enslaved in retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/8 "2017-08-25T06:27:44Z")
… okay, I guess that makes sense in a Miz kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/9 "2017-08-25T07:27:14Z")
My posting strategy is ineffable and opaque to those not of the one true Faith. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/10 "2017-08-25T11:03:10Z")
That would be because she has made it abundantly clear in a previous topic on the subject, that she has no problems with abandoning our people to their fate, if it means she and _hers_ can cower for a while longer until the Empire comes for them too. That she changes her tune on a whim is pretty much par for the course from both that political camp and her employers, so consistency isn’t exactly to be expected I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/11 "2017-08-25T12:00:46Z")
I don’t think I’ve been inconsistent at all. My prior objections were the same as they are now: if we fight _as things are_, we lose, and we provoke them into finishing the job. Your response the last time I said that was along the lines of ‘better all our people die fighting than wait any longer for some to be freed’. Only we both know they wouldn’t all die fighting. Children, the infirm, the old, those who just get _unlucky_ enough to be hit with non-lethal force… they’d all just end up swelling the ranks of the enslaved. But then, you haven’t gone in, guns blazing, either. So which of us is being inconsistent? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/12 "2017-08-25T12:08:36Z")
Cherrypicking a line is unbecoming of you, Arrendis. My response was that the Empire has a massive advantage in industry, territory and manpower, and giving them the time to massively out-manufacture and out-build us guarantees that when they do come we’re pretty much done for. Time is not on our side, nor that of those breaking every single day under their heel. Our chances lower every single moment we wait, and _that_ is why it’s better to take the step now that we still have a chance, rather than wait until it’s _guaranteed_ that they will win. Yes, there’s a risk in it. Yes, they could win. And it’d be vastly preferable to a _guaranteed_ defeat at their hands, which is what you are arguing for. Do let me know when you manage to counter CONCORD’s limiters on our systems, without the Tribes knocking down CONCORD again though. I’m sure you know of a way, or are you just being a disingenuous twat as usual? ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/13 "2017-08-25T13:34:50Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > I’m sure you know of a way, or are you just being a disingenuous twat as usual? I thought she was pointing out that you’re in Mercenary Coalition who are of course reasonably apolitical, and not say, some organisation like Ush’ra’Kha’n, which are of course Minmatar-aligned. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/14 "2017-08-25T13:39:23Z")
Are they? I’ve transported a great deal more of my liberated kin, and killed a great deal more enemies of my people after leaving them than I did wearing their tag. Whatever they once were, today they’re just another pendulum pretense actor living on past glories. And no, Arrendis is not stupid enough to think that’s a prerequisite for anything useful. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/15 "2017-08-25T14:22:45Z")
It’s just as unbecoming of you, Miz. As I said then: it’s a guaranteed loss _now_. We need to find some way to change the strategic situation, and just ranting and frothing isn’t it. There’s no risk in it. Risk implies there’s an element of chance. If we started a war like that _now_, we lose. Probably quickly, because of the very CONCORD limitations you’re trying to throw in my face. So what _new_ approach do you have to offer? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/16 "2017-08-25T14:25:47Z")
Well, y’thought wrong. If I was gonna go after Miz for associating with Coreli, I’d say ‘you’re bad because Coreli’. I know why she went there, I know why she stays, and clearly, even if I don’t agree with the choice, I’m not going to take the position that being there is somehow counter-productive to the end goal. Just because we disagree on the _how_, and the timing, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have her back if the shooting starts tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/17 "2017-08-25T14:40:31Z")
That’s where we disagree. Right now we have a chance. They’re more unstable now than they’ve been since the day they got their teeth kicked in by the Jovians. There’s cracks in their armor and they are dealing with more leadership change in the last decade than they’ve had for centuries before this. New Eden has changed far too fast for them to properly keep up, and every moment we wait _is time they have to change that_. I think you highly underestimate what quality over quantity is capable of, in spite of how the recent spat up north should have demonstrated that nicely. It’s a very simple problem. Waiting gives them time to grow past our capability to deal with. Waiting gives them time to break what little there is left of our people among them. This is not debatable and quite simply fact. They have more territory, numbers, industrial output and allowing them peace now means they can solidify that advantage and repair any cracks in the armor. Waiting is a _guaranteed deathknell for our people_. Waiting right now… all that means is cowering before a _possible_ failure, all in the name of inviting a guaranteed one. It’s such a pity. The greatest stumbling block on the path towards freedom for our people is not the Empire or the zealous faithful. It’s the spineless moderate among our own, so devoted to peace and order at all costs that they’ll forgo what is right. What is _just_. Sacrifice our people over there, so the ones over here can live a false peace that can only ever end in chains and oblivion. You are right in one thing. There are those among us who would rather see it all burn before it kneels before the Empire willingly. It would be the better choice, in the end, than see you weaken us so much. Die as a wolf or live as a dog… … well, you’ve made your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/18 "2017-08-25T15:03:02Z")
If that was the plan, the time to strike was during the Trials, or while the Drifters were hitting them _en masse_. As it is, the window _already_ closed. And don’t talk to me about ‘the recent spat up north’ as an example of ‘quality over quantity’. 1:1 numbers of battlecruisers against destroyers, or supercapitals against battleships, isn’t exactly making your case at all. Because we’d be looking at worse. We wouldn’t just be outnumbered, we’d be met with more ships that _individually_ bring more firepower. If we attack the Empire, if we’re the aggressors, do you think the Federation will pitch in? They won’t. But the State sure as hell will. What you suggest doing is to sacrifice all the people our ancestors managed to free, everyone, in order to free _nobody_. You would _foment_ the ‘chains and oblivion’ you sneer at. You can talk about ‘die as a wolf’, but the smart wolf doesn’t charge recklessly into the middle of a herd of elk. They work with the pack and hunt carefully to ensure success. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/19 "2017-08-25T15:08:29Z")
Or in the case you argue, they lay down and die with a whimper, having done nothing but cower. Surrender if you will. Abandon our people and betray them. I will not. (Oh, and in the fleets I was in, you outnumbered us every single time and lost hard. It was never 1:1 on my grids, I can assure you of that.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429/20 "2017-08-25T15:10:19Z")
Still don’t see you starting the war. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-critique-of-historical-imperial-reclaiming-policy/19429.md?page=2)