# A hopeful ending to an all-too-common tragedy **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Tags:** roleplay, amarr\ **Created:** [November 13, 2023, 3:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543 "2023-11-13T03:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 7:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/21 "2023-11-14T07:06:39Z")
> [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > Such is how strawman are made to serve one’s own personal moral vanity, where it is better to defer to the Scriptures guidance and command. Certainly. One should never risk self-serving empathy and understanding. Much better to trust self-serving fairy tales. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 12:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/22 "2023-11-14T12:05:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Much better to trust self-serving fairy tales. … And you’ve obviously never studied, let alone read them, as many of the scientific principles in the technology that have made Empyreans possible is first laid out in the scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/23 "2023-11-14T12:29:09Z")
> [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > I guess when you can self-proclaim such things about yourself Actually you’d be wrong about that being self-proclaimed. The title of “greatest sabik philosopher in years” was given to me by a chap by the name of Cardinal Graelyn some years ago. I’ve just polished it a little. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/24 "2023-11-14T12:39:00Z")
Ah, I see now. And with that standard may I take this opportunity to re-introduce myself, Uriel Murk’Udoria, ‘The Smartest Boy I Know’, bestowed on me by my Mother. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 1:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/25 "2023-11-14T13:01:31Z")
Yes, well, I assume your mother wasn’t actually one of your political opponents. Cardinal Graelyn on the other hand, wasn’t my father, (unless my mother has even more of a mysterious past than I am aware of), and was a great opponent of sabik capsuleers since the beginning of the capsuleer era, and as he himself said “I’ve seen plenty of sabik eggers, so know a smart one if I see them”. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/26 "2023-11-14T13:15:50Z")
Do you maybe have where and when this title was bestowed on you documented with a portrait or such? Perhaps like an honorific diploma? Do you often holo project it at Sani Sabik mixers when making a point in casual discussions with people you’ve just met? ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/27 "2023-11-14T16:22:34Z")
Ah-- respectfully, sir, (1) Cardinal Graelyn is in fact a long-familiar and respected name. He’s been relatively quiet of late but he’s been about. And, (2) “Greatest Sani Sabik capsuleer philosopher of the modern era” is a very low bar. (I might even edit out the “capsuleer.”) Dr. Valate also happens to be one of the least-horrible, which might not be a coincidence. Anyway it’s more one of those titles you can decide whether it’s appropriate almost immediately if you’ve spent any significant time dealing with Sabik. (Who, come to think of it, are also very much the kinds of people who invent grandiose titles for themselves. In this case though she’s probably not wrong?) ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/28 "2023-11-14T17:12:31Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Cardinal Graelyn is in fact a long-familiar and respected name. And I am sure Cardinal Graelyn is indeed and is off living their current clone’s best life. That said, a continuous announcing of a once received passing comment regarding one’s abilities or achievements from a third party, is as ridiculous as carrying about your letters received within the academy through the decades. It is on the same level as the act of the name dropping itself. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/29 "2023-11-14T17:28:59Z")
I mean, on the one hand, yes, on the other … … never mind, sir. It’ll become clear if you deal with her over time. Or encounter other Sabik much. Or visit Kaztropol for longer than half an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/30 "2023-11-14T20:29:00Z")
> [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > And you’ve obviously never studied, let alone read them, as many of the scientific principles in the technology that have made Empyreans possible is first laid out in the scriptures. Considering the Jove were _older_ than the Amarr, no, this is blatantly not true. Heck, even _the Amarr Scriptures_ indicate the original technologies of spaceflight and interstellar colonization were developed and executed by people who—save for one small population that would follow Gheinok—did not believe in the Amarr God at all. That the fairy tales include scientific information they did not invent means exactly as little as a fairy tale mentioning _bread_. > [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > That said, a continuous announcing of a once received passing comment regarding one’s abilities or achievements from a third party, is as ridiculous as carrying about your letters received within the academy through the decades. It’s really more of a commentary on the lack of _other_ Sani philosophers over the decades. She wrote a thing. Some people were impressed. Nobody else has written a thing within the same vein_1_, so she’s still got the belt, uncontested. 🤷 1. Pun _totally_ intended after-the-fact. 😏 ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/31 "2023-11-14T20:42:06Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Considering the Jove were _older_ than the Amarr, no, Non sequitur. > [@Arrendis](#): > > even _the Amarr Scriptures_ indicate the original technologies of spaceflight and interstellar colonization were developed and executed by people who—save for one small population that would follow Gheinok—did not believe in the Amarr God at all. So the Jove went about… and gave everyone, all their technology that led to this age of Empyreans, with no one ever doing anything for science and engineering to achieve space flight on their own? Is that what you are claiming? The pod, specifically, sure was Jove as are a few other technologies. That said, no, the Amarr had many breakthroughs, as did others, which propagated among us without being handed out by the Jove. If anything, the Jove actively manipulated suppression of scientific and technological discovery in effort to meet their own agendas. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That the fairy tales include scientific information they did not invent means exactly as little as a fairy tale mentioning _bread_. Right, back to the translator here… hmnn… > > Facts don’t support what I say, so I handwave off the historical documentation that contradicts me. Ah, I see, well, that makes the stance a bit clearer I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 5:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/32 "2023-11-15T05:43:40Z")
> [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > So the Jove went about… and gave everyone, all their technology that led to this age of Empyreans, with no one ever doing anything for science and engineering to achieve space flight on their own? Is that what you are claiming? No. I’m claiming that the Amarr Scriptures are not the source of any technologies. Multiple different groups rediscovered spaceflight all on their own. And the Jove retained far _more_ technology and knowledge than the Amarr, all without needing the imaginary man in the sky. So the _presence_ of scientific information in the Amarr scriptures isn’t indicative of any merit to the supernatural claims in the same works. > [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > Right, back to the translator here… hmnn… Here, since you apparently haven’t the _wit_ to understand… You talk about ‘oh, the Scriptures contain scientific information’ as if it’s supposed to prove something. It doesn’t. Plenty of fairy stories include scientific information. For example: Mastery of _fire_. Agriculture. Tool use for fine-processing of organic materials. Citing Empyrean technology (which, no, _isn’t_ in the Amarr Scriptures prior to the Jove sharing their tech, that’s why the Empyrean Age _begins_ with the marriage of capsule and clone) is no more persuasive than fairy tales that feature other technology… like bread, which brings together Agriculture, Fire, Tool Use… And no, not even the scientific principles are somehow unique to the Amarr Scriptures. If they _were_, the Gallente and Caldari wouldn’t have already fought an interstellar _war_ by the time either of them encountered the Amarr. The Jove wouldn’t have been on their _third_ empire. The Drifters and Trigs—contemporaries of the _Second_ Empire—wouldn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 11:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/33 "2023-11-15T11:29:10Z")
You have to make a distinction between what you might call the historical or narrative Scriptures - “The people travelled to Athra from the old world aboard giant ships” which clearly indicates that space travel was known to be a thing from the beginning - and what you might call the technical or scientific Scriptures, which are generally a lot more recent, and are a record of how such things were reinvented, rediscovered, and so on, and describe principles and best practices for use of contemporary technologies, not the technologies of old. i.e. the current Scriptures relating to interstellar travel relate to the design and development of modern-day ships over the past 2000 years of Amarr space travel and not to the ships from fifteen thousand years ago, which we know _existed_, but have no technical documentation on _how_ they functioned. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 11:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/34 "2023-11-15T11:31:48Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > So the _presence_ of scientific information in the Amarr scriptures isn’t indicative of any merit to the supernatural claims in the same works. Moving the goal post. You claimed them fairy tales in their entirety before. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Much better to trust self-serving fairy tales. Thats what you originally said. And that is what I addressed. Now you say what, I make a specific claim, an appeal to some manner requiring supernatural explanation. So where is it, present it please. I stated that scientific principles, which would provide the foundations for technologies which lead to the Empyrean were first laid out in their forms which are contained within the Scriptures. You seem to think all scientific history vanished, with the Jove’s ‘gift’ of the pod to the Caldari, when what they did was also a contribution. Further, you conflate the Jove having technology, technology they did not ‘gift’ to others, that was brought to our mutual uses from our own independent discovery, part of which was contained within the Scriptures, and laid out there first, and how it came to be shared with others. If anything, you seem to be a Jovian’theist, believing them responsible by some supernatural manner for all other’s independent accomplishments merely because of their civilization’s timeline to others for such, despite them not making their knowledge accessible to any outside themselves as they observed us discovering it on our own. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/35 "2023-11-16T03:28:29Z")
> [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > You claimed them fairy tales in their entirety before. I claimed they were fairy tales. I still claim they’re fairy tales. Are fairy tale that include breadcrumbs not fairy tales because breadcrumbs are a real thing? Of course not. > [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > Now you say what, I make a specific claim, an appeal to some manner requiring supernatural explanation. So where is it, present it please. I mean, if you really want… > [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > Thankfully some lost children were able to be recovered as a band of criminals tried to spirit them away to a life of savage spiritual regression. The traffickers that seized them, were slain in the attempt. But sadly, they had killed several innocent caregivers and guides who were by the scripture’s word, serving their holder to see these slaves brought through Reclaiming. By Providence, their deaths will not be in vain, as these humble souls were recovered in time to resume Vitoc treatment and are being divided up to relocate in the region, where they can after this stumble re-find their paths, and call to salvation yet, despite the calamity of violence that tried to deprive them of that opportunity. > > Deus vult There’s at least four claims requiring supernatural explanation, right there. 1. ‘a life of savage spiritual regression’. Please demonstrate the existence of anything ‘spiritual’. 2. ‘brought through Reclaiming’. Reclaiming is itself a claim to bring people ‘back’ into obedient one-ness with God through Holy Amarr. ‘God’ is a supernatural claim, thus, anything involving Reclaiming is _also_ dependent on supernatural explanation. Otherwise, your ‘Reclaiming’ becomes only cultural genocide and personal avarice. 3. ‘By Providence’—unless you’re attributing this course to the region of space between Domain and Catch, this is a shorthand for ‘divine providence’, ie, the protective care of God… which also requires God, and so, supernatural explanation 4. ‘Deus vult’. Hey, lookit that… God again. There you go. Presented. > [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > You seem to think all scientific history vanished Not only did I say no such thing, I specifically indicated it _did not_. Instead, you put forth the implication that ‘Empyrean technology’ was reliant upon mysteries revealed in the Amarr Scriptures, which it absolutely isn’t. The Jove were cited _solely_ as an example of just how reliant upon the Amarr Scriptures the cluster _has never been_. > [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](#): > > If anything, you seem to be a Jovian’theist You’ve got too many letters there. Lose the ‘J’,‘o’,‘v’,‘i’,‘n’, and the apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-hopeful-ending-to-an-all-too-common-tragedy/427543/36 "2024-02-14T03:29:22Z")
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