# A letter from me, to CCP **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 28, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549 "2018-11-28T20:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kuni\_Nai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kuni_nai/32/439711_2.png) [@Kuni\_Nai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kuni_Nai)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 11:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/81 "2019-03-04T11:15:26Z")
Back to the P2W question. Eve is P2WwS - Pay to Win with Skills, Yes you can pay to plex which pays for Isk. But even if you throw money at the game, it has to be backed up with your personal gaming skills & tactics. It is therefore less susceptible to RL rich players influencing the sandbox than other games. Kuni ---
**Author:** ![ArmyOfMe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/armyofme/32/514222_2.png) [@ArmyOfMe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ArmyOfMe)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/82 "2019-03-04T14:16:02Z")
> [@Kerono\_Thalmor](#): > > Walking in Stations was a bad idea anyway Sadly I dont agree with you. I think it would have added a lot to this game, and might even have caused a surge of new players, but I guess we will never find out now. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/83 "2019-03-04T14:20:47Z")
> [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > Again that is not true. Time in eve gives a direct advantage. higher Accuracy, more damage, more survivability, and more ship access. This is totally not an accurate claim. Actually, if you read his entire post, he compared someone who played since 2003 to someone who injected to catch up. And that’s the point. I agree that it isnt necessarily going to be non-advantageous, but experience still factors in a large part in eve online. A T1 fit ship versus a T2 fit ship will not always end up in the T2s favor. Experience isnt something that comes along with skill injectors. > [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > if two toons start today, equal knowledge of eve, and one injects and the other does not, are they equal? Hell no. Even with equal level knowledge, the one injecting wins, hands down. Sure, if you made a clone of someone and pitted them against each other, the T2 ship would probably win. But no two players are perfect clones of each other. If we chose two random people from eve and had them pilot t1 and t2 ships with their corresponding skills, would the one who injected into T2 win, hands down? Could you even put a percentage point as to how often a T2 injected char would win over a week old T1 char, if we chose the player of said char, by random chance? The difference with eve online and other pay to win games, is that the skill differential is on a different level. We often joke that eve has a steep, brutal learning curve, and in some ways it’s true. If a game only requires you to click every few seconds to fire, that’s not a lot of skill. And a payment option of reducing the cooldown between each shot, would constitute a clear pay to win. But with eve? Transversal, range, mwd or AB, missiles or turrets, active or passive, even the placement of modules is important, and that’s only a fraction of what you need to learn to be good, or better at pvp than your opponent. None of these can be injected, all of it is experience. ---
**Author:** ![Miko\_Jin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miko_jin/32/137818_2.png) [@Miko\_Jin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miko_Jin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/84 "2019-03-04T18:43:55Z")
With your KB you are in no position to comment! [https://zkillboard.com/character/90588542/](https://zkillboard.com/character/90588542/) ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/85 "2019-03-04T21:50:45Z")
> [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > Again that is not true. Time in eve gives a direct advantage. higher Accuracy, more damage, more survivability, and more ship access. This is totally not an accurate claim. Time does not give you a direct advantage. If I train up skills that you inject, we’re both in the same place. Eve has no start and no finish (well… hopefully no finish lol). It’s not a race. Comparing two players who start at the same time where one injects and the other does not is a false comparison. Comparing two players who have access to the same skills, regardless of how they train them, will yield identical results. Comparing injector-using pilots to non and then saying that one has advantage over the other is like comparing a pilot who trained up frigates to a pilot who trained up a jackdaw, and wondering why the jackdaw always wins. If you compare two frigate pilots, two jackdaw pilots, etc, then you have an even comparison. It doesn’t matter how you get those skills, they’re still the same skills. > [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > Sigh > You do realize that the entire progression in eve, is a time gate, right? You should read a little closer. **playing** in Eve. I specifically mention the difference between time gating on SP and time gating on gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Naari\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/naari_naarian/32/173077_2.png) [@Naari\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Naari_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/86 "2019-03-05T01:39:10Z")
> [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > If I train up skills that you inject, we’re both in the same place. Eve has no start and no finish (well… hopefully no finish lol). It’s not a race. Ok. Lets follow this logic. I inject like crazy, and we meet after 1 month, Are we anywhere near the same? The answer is no. If you try to argue this point, you are providing argumentation that is intellectually biest, meaning your arguing for the sake of being right and i dont have time or that level of stupidity. Skill points are not useless, or anywhere near it. They provide an almost equal level of influence to game play skill. It is for this reason alone bob ran around eve for 6 years owning everything as the most skill point progressed alliance. So please, lets not try to play this stupid game like “Omg, like totally my skill is 90% of the gameplay” because mathematically speaking, you can be made a fool of it. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/87 "2019-03-05T01:46:49Z")
> [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > I inject like crazy, and we meet after 1 month, Are we anywhere near the same? Depends on how long I’ve been training for. As I said before, Eve has no start and no finish. You can’t take two characters, say they started at the same time, and then compare their relative power to each other. You compare the playerbase against the playerbase. Would we be the same? No, probably not. My character would have WAY more SP unless you’re actually Jeff Bezos and you just sunk a hundred thousand dollars into plex. > [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > The answer is no. you aren’t allowed to argue because REEEE FTFY. Our disagreement is not justification for you to say I’m not allowed to argue. I’m providing reasoned arguments. > [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > Skill points are not useless, or anywhere near it. They provide an almost equal level of influence to game play skill. It is for this reason alone bob ran around eve for 6 years owning everything as the most skill point progressed alliance. I agree entirely. Skill points are a definite metric of power. You’re stuck with the idea though that characters have some time-based progression where they’re supposed to get stronger, and that this is somehow completely separate from the fact that new accounts start all the time. You can inject all you want, maybe you’ll be “more powerful” than the dude who started at the same time and didn’t inject. But you won’t be more powerful than someone who has more SP. At the end of the day, you can’t inject something that I can’t train. Just because you get into it faster doesn’t make you stronger, it just makes you stronger than people who haven’t trained it yet. They can still train it. Many people already have trained it. Say I’ve got dread 5 trained (we’ll ignore every other skill), and you’ve just injected dread 4. Are you stronger? No. You aren’t. Can you inject dread 5? Sure you can. But you still won’t be stronger than I am. Getting stronger faster, removing the SP time gate, does not give you an unfair advantage over another player. It just gets you higher skills faster. Those can still be obtained without a single injector. ---
**Author:** ![Gaius\_Mileghere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaius_mileghere/32/258417_2.png) [@Gaius\_Mileghere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaius_Mileghere)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/88 "2019-03-05T01:54:12Z")
I have a killmark on a Dragoon obtained by getting in the final blow on an Archon. A t1 destroyer got the final blow on a frickin’ carrier. Said destroyer pilot has just over 4 million skill points. How many skill points does a carrier pilot need again? ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/89 "2019-03-05T01:55:59Z")
> [@Gaius\_Mileghere](#): > > Dragoon Haha… T1 destroyers are the bee’s knees. Corp roams used to be thrashers. We never had to fly home because who cares about 6 million isk. We’d swarm the crap out of rattlesnakes, carriers, even supers with enough thrashers. The entirety of our fleet cost less than a single wing of their fighters. Absolutely glorious. ---
**Author:** ![Gaius\_Mileghere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaius_mileghere/32/258417_2.png) [@Gaius\_Mileghere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaius_Mileghere)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/90 "2019-03-05T02:01:01Z")
it was an amazing fleet - BjornBee’s public roam last night. Final encounter of the roam. The entire roam all I lost was one hobgoblin. But yeah, point made: you don’t have to go expensive or ridiculously high-skilled to have fun in EVE. Jump into a dessie or a tackle frig on a five minute old toon and join a pubfleet, and if you’re lucky you might be able to maintain close to a 3:1 kill ratio. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/91 "2019-03-05T02:02:22Z")
> [@Gaius\_Mileghere](#): > > it was an amazing fleet - BjornBee’s public roam last night. Final encounter of the roam. The entire roam all I lost was one hobgoblin. They really are excellent. I enjoy flying T1Ds, we later upgraded to T3Ds for the most part beacuse it amped up what we could kill when a response fleet showed up. But on the flip side, losses were way worse when we did eat it. The best part about the T1Ds is you don’t give a ■■■■. You can take any fight, because if you lose, oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Naari\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/naari_naarian/32/173077_2.png) [@Naari\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Naari_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/92 "2019-03-05T02:02:35Z")
> [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > Depends on how long I’ve been training for No it does not. because no amount of training will ever beat someone who is training and injecting, and your down right stupid for suggesting other wise. Get out of here, this convo is over you are not intellectually honest, or your challenged. pleb. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/93 "2019-03-05T02:05:01Z")
> [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > No it does not. > because no amount of training will ever beat someone who is training and injecting, and your down right stupid for suggesting other wise. Really? So what’s the max level for amarr dreadnought? 5? What about weapon specs? 6, right? Oh, no, still 5. Perhaps support skills? Still 5. Doesn’t matter if you train into them or inject into them. You won’t be any stronger than I will be. And in case it needs to be said, this applies to every skill not just dreads. > [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > Get out of here, this convo is over you are not intellectually honest, or your challenged. > pleb. Not sure who pissed in your cornflakes. Either way it seems to have caused brain damage, so I’d suggest you steer clear of them for a few days and see if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Gaius\_Mileghere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaius_mileghere/32/258417_2.png) [@Gaius\_Mileghere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaius_Mileghere)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/94 "2019-03-05T02:08:04Z")
dude… my pvp toon can BARELY fly a cruiser. It’s tuned for frigates and destroyers. I’ll throw that thing at any ship, any size, any day of the week. Because when I DO, I do it when there’s a fleet behind me doing the same thing and the target is either going to go pop or I am (because when things go south I’m usually the first to go back podex). ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/96 "2019-03-05T02:11:08Z")
> [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > NO U FTFY. And no, I’ve long understood the fact that players, regardless of their time in-game, can have a wide range of SP. It doesn’t make a lick of difference how they got them. There is no difference whatsoever between a perfectly skilled pilot who injected up and a perfectly skilled pilot who trained up. You may feel that “they got there faster so they’re obviously stronger” but that is quite simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Naari\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/naari_naarian/32/173077_2.png) [@Naari\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Naari_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/97 "2019-03-05T02:13:19Z")
> [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > It doesn’t make a lick of difference how they got them. Yes it does. As stated many times. There has been people that have joined eve, injected 10’s of thousands of dollars (or pounds) and then go 200m sp from it. Its insane but it has happened. IT shows that you can definitely “pay to win” eve. I have persnally met someone who has done this, plexing spam to gain skills to spend billions to come back to die to do it all over again, and eventually win. You are absolutely insane if you think that putting money in eve is not going to have any sort o effect on that process, and anyone in eve will tell you that. ---
**Author:** ![Shai\_Hulud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shai_hulud/32/279251_2.png) [@Shai\_Hulud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shai_Hulud)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/98 "2019-03-05T02:17:32Z")
> [@Gaius\_Mileghere](#): > > I have a killmark on a Dragoon obtained by getting in the final blow on an Archon. A t1 destroyer got the final blow on a frickin’ carrier. Said destroyer pilot has just over 4 million skill points. How many skill points does a carrier pilot need again? This topic never fails. The rate of completely irrelevant arguments in here is just astounding… (quoted prime example) ---
**Author:** ![Gaius\_Mileghere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaius_mileghere/32/258417_2.png) [@Gaius\_Mileghere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaius_Mileghere)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/99 "2019-03-05T02:17:58Z")
never bought sub. Killed a carrier last night. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/100 "2019-03-05T02:18:11Z")
> [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > As stated many times. > There has been people that have joined eve, injected 10’s of thousands of dollars (or pounds) and then go 200m sp from it. Its insane but it has happened. IT shows that you can definitely “pay to win” eve. What exactly have they won? They’re no more powerful than a long term player. You cherry-pick a fight against a weaker opponent. I’m pointing out that they aren’t just fighting players with less SP. And even then, a player with less SP but more skill can often times still beat the higher SP player who decided to credit-card their way into a ship. The skill level cap doesn’t allow you to get any stronger, even if you inject a billion extra SP. > [@Naari\_Naarian](#): > > to come back to die to do it all over again, and eventually win. I see, and what stops a player from doing that without microtransactions? Is the dude buying magic ships? Special ammo? Is he paying CCP to give him better ships? No. He has no advantage over any other player. If he’s using plex for isk, that just means he spends less time grinding isk. It doesn’t make him better at pvp. ---
**Author:** ![Gaius\_Mileghere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaius_mileghere/32/258417_2.png) [@Gaius\_Mileghere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaius_Mileghere)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549/101 "2019-03-05T02:19:32Z")
how is it irrelevant? Part of the argument here is that the more skillpoints you have the more certain you are of victory in pvp. I just proved that wrong. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-letter-from-me-to-ccp/123549.md?page=6)