# A Open Letter to CCP and Players, changes need to be made for good **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2022, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623 "2022-09-02T07:36:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/84 "2022-09-05T12:41:28Z")
> [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > Mashing function keys more quickly than someone else isn’t a worthwhile goal for me unless there’s a deeper more personal reason behind the activity. At a certain point I’ll end up mashing them with all the right ships at the right time for my own reasons. Nice Strawman. And that’s why you’ll never do anything that’s risky. Because you’ll justify the reason for not doing it as “It’s not the right time… I don’t have the right ship. I don’t think mashing buttons is worth my time. Blah blah blah.” I’ve met enough industrial-bears like you. You’re not the first person to pander these pointless excuses. So I guess the real question becomes, who are you trying to convince. Us or yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Paliphany\_Bradbury](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/paliphany_bradbury/32/441256_2.png) [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Paliphany_Bradbury)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/85 "2022-09-05T12:45:43Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > So I guess the real question becomes, who are you trying to convince. Us or yourself? I’m just being another one of the dozen or so posters on these forums pissing into the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/86 "2022-09-05T12:48:58Z")
> [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > I’m pretty sure I made a good long term tactical decision. That’s what a sandbox is all about, playing the game the way you choose rather than someone else’s choices. However for these posturing popinjays, the _important_ thing is that you gave them the opportunity to publicly say “You’re a productive citizen, and I’m a thug, and that makes me better than you. You know how to create things, and I can smash things, so that makes me better than you. I’m playing my way and you’re playing your way, but my way is better than yours so that makes me better than you.” So long as these folks have the ability to puff up their chest and brag about how utterly deadly they are and how lame everyone who actually _builds the entire gaming world around them_ is, then all is right with their world. Keep on doing what you’re doing, and let them preen and pose as much as they need. It’s good karma to help the less-abled feel a sense of self-importance. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/87 "2022-09-05T12:52:04Z")
> [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > I’m just being another one of the dozen or so posters on these forums pissing into the wind. We can be friends! I was a bit harsh. If you truly are the rare breed of industrialist that also engage in other activities, then I do commend you! ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/88 "2022-09-05T12:54:22Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > “You’re a thug, and I’m a productive citizen, and that makes me better than you. You know how to smash things, and I can create things, so that makes me better than you. I’m playing my way and you’re playing your way, but my way is better than yours so that makes me better than you.” There, I fixed it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/89 "2022-09-05T12:55:31Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > EVE can handle a plague of boring grindy spacekrabs. What’s killing it is a dearth of fresh interesting content that appeals to a wider range of players. Is that really the case, or is it just that you’ve personally done everything and that creates a hindsight perspective where you imagine others will get bored quickly. My own perspective after 11 months in the game, and I can see other similar age noobs the same, is that there is still masses to do and loads to learn. I’m not gonna get bored any time soon. But that’s the thing. So often these forums are full of people speaking _on behalf of_ noobs, and there’s very little actual noob feedback to confirm or deny what’s being said. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/90 "2022-09-05T14:18:33Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Is that really the case, or is it just that you’ve personally done everything and that creates a hindsight perspective where you imagine others will get bored quickly. My own perspective after 11 months in the game, and I can see other similar age noobs the same, is that there is still masses to do and loads to learn. I’m not gonna get bored any time soon. Yes, when anyone new starts any game, there’s a lot to look forward to. No one is saying there’s nothing at all to do in EVE. A game needs to both attract new players, and retain old players. Attracting new players is all about the advertising and market positioning, then not chasing them away with the NPE. CCP is working on that (although of course this is something like the 9th time they’ve re-written the NPE so…) It is however even more valuable to retain your _existing_ players, because those are the ones already committed and _paying_. Only a very small percent of all potential players in a F2P game will pay, so it’s important to retain them. You can’t keep them all of course, but the more you retain their interest the better it will be. For players who’ve been in the game 4+ years, there’s not a lot to do that they haven’t already tried or given up on. And the “players are the content, just go PvP” option that so many tout as “endless content” is just really badly implemented. Actual PvP (other than profit-ganking) is disincentivized in a number of ways. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > So often these forums are full of people speaking _on behalf of_ noobs Perhaps. But my post said nothing about noobs. Only about fresh content that appeals to a wider range of players. ---
**Author:** ![Shower\_Ben\_Dover](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shower_ben_dover/32/329433_2.png) [@Shower\_Ben\_Dover](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shower_Ben_Dover)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/91 "2022-09-05T16:47:14Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > Doubt. > > Kinda hard to do to that stuff when one is too busy grinding away at the belts to feed their industry that they paid whale amounts of plex to establish Remember: the minerals I mine are free! ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/92 "2022-09-05T17:02:59Z")
So are all the MTUs that I find laying around! ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/93 "2022-09-05T21:52:52Z")
> [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > Mashing function keys more quickly than someone else isn’t a worthwhile goal for me unless there’s a deeper more personal reason behind the activity. If you think combat skill peaks at “mashing function keys quicker than someone else,” then your understanding of the game is basically on day two level. > [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > At a certain point I’ll end up mashing them with all the right ships at the right time for my own reasons. Yes, this is exactly what carebear loser logic _is._ "Just a little bit more money and a couple more skill points, and I’ll try doing other things, I _promise!_ " Maybe this isn’t your _intent,_ but you should at least be aware of the existence of this sort of self-mental trap, and take steps to avoid it. > [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > (This is a sandbox is it not?) Just because it’s a “sandbox” doesn’t mean you can’t make _objective_ errors in the way you play in it. In a sandbox, you can _eat_ the sand if you so desire. No one’s going to stop you! But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a _terrible_ idea. Kind of like in your home, you can do anything you want. You can take a fork, bend in the inner prongs, and then stick the thing inside a power outlet. It’s completely within your prerogative to do this! Likewise, you can play EVE any way you wish, but you can absolutely choose to play in a way that costs you progress, makes you take unnecessary losses, needlessly stunts the growth of your personal skills, etc. etc. Do understand that I don’t have a vested interest in you becoming a good player. It actually benefits me when players keep themselves at a level where they act as my content (e.g. the loss mail you linked). However, I consider it a matter of integrity to inform players that they _can_ play better. Then they can either listen to advice, or tell me to ■■■■ off, and I’m fine with either. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/95 "2022-09-06T05:14:43Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > So long as these folks have the ability to puff up their chest and brag about how utterly deadly they are and how lame everyone who actually _builds the entire gaming world around them_ is, then all is right with their world. Yesm. You build the ships so others can EVE. You want a hug or ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/96 "2022-09-06T06:47:14Z")
When everyone realises how lame they all are then we can get over this and direct the vitriol where it needs to go. Nullsec. ---
**Author:** ![Paliphany\_Bradbury](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/paliphany_bradbury/32/441256_2.png) [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Paliphany_Bradbury)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/97 "2022-09-06T12:18:15Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > If you think combat skill peaks at “mashing function keys quicker than someone else,” then your understanding of the game is basically on day two level. From a PVP perspective about week 2 actually. I appreciate your advice. I had thought FW would be the place to learn better PVP but lets face it the war is over and Gallente lost. My ‘Personal reason’ was feeling a part of the war effort. Other than about a dozen really good fighters, who are vastly outnumbered, there’s not much RP/Story/Strategy to it. The fleets are disorganized chum to bait out the other side. There’s no centralized/organized resistance so the story/RP value just isn’t there for me. I’m thinking filaments might be the next step for me, for now, but it’s obvious the difference between PVE dungeons and PVP will leave much EDU still being required. However, after only running in FW for a couple weeks, it’s obvious I still have plenty of basics I could learn. Again I very much appreciate your perspective and advice. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/98 "2022-09-06T12:35:33Z")
He have 11 alts, how many you have? ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/99 "2022-09-06T14:11:21Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Attracting new players is all about the advertising and market positioning, then not chasing them away with the NPE. CCP is working on that (although of course this is something like the 9th time they’ve re-written the NPE so…) But its yet another case of vets ( in this case CCP themselves ) thinking they know best how noobs respond to the game. What they _ought_ to be doing is asking all the recent noobs maybe 6 months or a year into the game what the NPE should contain. They need to be asking people still fresh enough to remember noob-ness, yet long enough in the game to know where the NPE could be re-directed to good effect. In my view an _essential_ addition to the NPE would be a video explaining gameplay itself in more detail. Not the technicalities, but a 'this is what you can expect to _happen_ in Eve '. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/100 "2022-09-06T15:07:53Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > But its yet another case of vets ( in this case CCP themselves ) thinking they know best how noobs respond to the game. Well, you’ve expressed that opinion a number of times, and it certainly has some merit. Very few people who’ve played any game for several years remember just what the “new player” challenges were. They tend to gloss over things like “hey if your ship got blown up just buy another. Here’s a good fit that will work well for you.” Then they link a T2 fit that needs high skills and 8 million ISK. That said, what vets think or don’t think about the NPE is somewhat irrelevant. What is said on the forums and what’s thought by vets has a snowball’s chance in hell of affecting anything CCP does. CCP rarely pays attention to player input unless there’s a major widespread revolt involved. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > In my view an _essential_ addition to the NPE would be a video explaining gameplay itself in more detail. Not the technicalities, but a 'this is what you can expect to _happen_ in Eve '. This could certainly help. In fact, CCP should commission a whole series of helpful “starter” videos made _by_ players _for_ players. And then reward the best submissions with something special. I believe CCP was heading in this direction with their EVE Academy initiative, although I’m not sure how well that’s working out. One issue is that when starting a new game, most players don’t want to learn everything about the game up-front. They want to get in, spend about 15-30 minutes of orientation (or less, in many cases) and then get to the action. > **[EVE Academy | The ultimate beginner's guide to EVE Online | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/eve-academy)** > > Get the best start you can as a new player in EVE Online with resources, guides, skill plans, and more. Learn with EVE Academy today! That’s where one of EVE’s key “players lose interest and leave” points lies, in my opinion. Since the “action” doesn’t really get started in that timeframe. The NPE should get them started, get them into some action, set an emotional hook for leading to further commitment and gameplay, and then get out of the way and let them play. Extra videos and explanations and details should then be easily accessible in-game, tied to something like an “Opportunities and Directions tree” that points out various areas they can engage with and gives them the _option_ of watching a decent video or tutorial to help with it. Which, ideally, should be accessible in-game without requiring tabbing out and navigating to a separate website to view. One other thing CCP should try on the “what to expect in EVE” front, is a trick I ran across in a couple games years ago. In those games, when you go to download the game, they run it with a little launcher that also downloads and plays some “cool things about the game” videos _while the game is downloading_. Not sure how many people would actually use that but it seems like a good time to set at least some background expectations of what EVE is like. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/101 "2022-09-06T15:21:16Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > They tend to gloss over things like “hey if your ship got blown up just buy another. Here’s a good fit that will work well for you.” Then they link a T2 fit that needs high skills and 8 million ISK. Precisely. Nobody ever tells noobs that they ‘can’ fit a Venture for a mere 300K ISK. OK so it only mines at 80% of the more expensive version, but its an option and way better than using a Velator and pays for itself in a single trip for veldspar . This sort of info could make all the difference between a person leaving or staying. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > This could certainly help. In fact, CCP should commission a whole series of helpful “starter” videos made _by_ players _for_ players. And then reward the best submissions with something special. Or even a player made ‘Eve Tour’. It would have to be downloadable content so as not to affect the servers. A single source of multiple player videos in the form of a clickable Eve map that one could sub-divide into mining, PvE, PvP, highsec, lowsec, etc, content. This could be a pre-login option on the Eve menu. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/102 "2022-09-06T15:40:03Z")
Hey Gix… I did absolutely not miss you. I thought you left for good… Now I’m interested! Have a good one! ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/103 "2022-09-06T15:56:26Z")
> [@Paliphany\_Bradbury](#): > > You may want to be a bit more aware of your own blinders. There’s A LOT more to this game than just PvP. By saying the above your being as blind as the poster. Speaking of blinders. 1. PvE is a collection of ISK faucets, PvP is part of a collection of ISK sinks. Guess which ones are important for balance ? 2. When CCP - at the insistance of players who lack imagination to create their own content (sand boxes are tough in that aspect) or have their "i’m a pve player blinders up - introduces some fun “entertainment”, it does not mean these “distractions” become _the_ norm. They are the snacks in between acts. Stop pretending a healthy meal consists of nothing but deserts. For the rest of the player base, PvE is a means to an end, funding that part of the game where you lose stuff. 3. PvE is appreciated for its payout, in the long run. Nothing else, if you play EvE like you should, where ships are ammo, not e-vanity items. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Guess you never saw this about Eve’s A.I. It was a bug disguised as a feature. 😝 And yes, CCP tries to push the AI of npc’s to resemble more PvP-like actions. I can imagine what the complaints will be then. ---
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Pig](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_pig/32/374625_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Pig](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623/104 "2022-09-06T17:12:25Z")
> [@TheDopeMan](#): > > people who can’t fight back BINGO! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-open-letter-to-ccp-and-players-changes-need-to-be-made-for-good/375623.md?page=6)