# A Pragmatic Look at Slavery and Reform in Khanid **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125 "2021-05-04T02:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cato\_the\_Future](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cato_the_future/32/270863_2.png) [@Cato\_the\_Future](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cato_the_Future)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/1 "2021-05-04T02:14:18Z")
Hello, As a general disclaimer, I of course always agree with the Khanid Royal Government and adhere to all of it’s policies, I just wanted to raise a few ideas, that may or may not help Khanid in the future. I think the time has come for Khanid to consider abolition. Now, I know this quite shocking at first, but hear me out. I am not a Gallente ideologue nor a Minmatar subversive, I am a loyal citizen of Khanid, and I speak out of a deep and abiding concern for Khanid’s future. Forgoing any moral reasoning on this point, I think there are several pragmatic reasons to abolish slavery. 1. **Slaves are not taxed.** They cannot own property and are by definition not paid for their jobs. This results in a large segment of the population not contributing to the common weal of the Kingdom. They economically benefit those who own them, but without paying taxes they do not benefit the Kingdom at large. And as the King and the Kingdom are inseparable, the King himself is losing money by slavery. 2. **Slavery produces indolence in the slave owners.** Look at our cousins in the Amarr Empire, almost all of their best technology comes from us! They are generally viewed as being the most technologically backwards of the four empires. This is because the leadership has very little motivation to make work and life easier, because their slaves already make life incredibly easy for them. But this level of comfort pales compared to comfort derived from technological advances. For now, the low-level threat of Amarrian invasion has forced us into innovation, but for long can it last while we continue to reconcile with Amarr? 3. **It breeds ill will towards the Kingdom from almost every power.** Since we have been taking slaves where they can found, we have enslaved peoples from every quarter. Not only have we alienated the Gallante and Minmatar, but the Syndicate, Independent capsuleers, Thukker Tribe, Sisters of Eve, and even some pirates are angry at us. We are a small power, and cannot fight the entire universe. If we annoy too many people for too long, they may decide it is best to deal with us militarily. The independent capsuleers in the outer regions may even begin to look harshly towards us. Look at the endless war between Amarr and Minmatar. I do not want to see my beloved Khanid in a constant state of war as well. And with increasing numbers of hostile invaders such as Sansha and the Triglavians, we may well need to work with others just to survive. 4. **It hinders missionary work**. On the heels of item three, it hinders the work of our missionaries in spreading the Faith. People are inclined to close their ears to those who would enslave them. I believe great spiritual inroads into several regions could be made if we were to get rid of slavery. That is all I have right now. I hope and pray that my words my find their way to our wise monarch and that he may consider them a humble offering from his servant Cato the Future. ---
**Author:** ![Jennifer\_Maxwell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jennifer_maxwell/32/319582_2.png) [@Jennifer\_Maxwell](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jennifer_Maxwell)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/2 "2021-05-04T02:33:53Z")
Perhaps moving towards a system of indentured servitude? It’s what we do with criminals or some undesirables on Asakai. Give them jobs, allot them corporate or house script to purchase a limited assortment of amenities, and let them save up a small amount of money towards when they’re free. They’re doing work, being rewarded, and are less likely to cause problems if they have things they value that can be taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Ithi\_Deritan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ithi_deritan/32/255445_2.png) [@Ithi\_Deritan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ithi_Deritan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/3 "2021-05-04T03:54:59Z")
> [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > **Slaves are not taxed.** They cannot own property and are by definition not paid for their jobs. This results in a large segment of the population not contributing to the common weal of the Kingdom. They economically benefit those who own them, but without paying taxes they do not benefit the Kingdom at large. And as the King and the Kingdom are inseparable, the King himself is losing money by slavery. You are Correct slaves are not taxed, But we are based on the income our slaves produce, More income more taxes paid, it balances out, at least in my opinion > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > 1. **Slavery produces indolence in the slave owners.** Look at our cousins in the Amarr Empire, almost all of their best technology comes from us! They are generally viewed as being the most technologically backwards of the four empires. This is because the leadership has very little motivation to make work and life easier because their slaves already make life incredibly easy for them. But this level of comfort pales compared to comfort derived from technological advances. For now, the low-level threat of Amarrian invasion has forced us into innovation, but for long can it last while we continue to reconcile with Amarr? Does it? I know a few of the kingdoms Holders that do work still for the Navy, or the Government, taking leadership roles, generally as officers in the RKN. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > . **It breeds ill will towards the Kingdom from almost every power.** Since we have been taking slaves where they can found, Then I would suggest they do not commit crimes, A lot of our slaves since CONCORD came into power and we signed treaties have been law-breakers. Which is really in the end no different than sentencing someone to life imprisonment in one of the other Empires around. You also suggest Syndicate, Thukker Tribe, and other Pirates? Does it matter if Pirates are mad at us? We Hunt them, Blooders especially. That alone is enough to make them hate us, are you possibly suggesting we should make friends with such scum? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 5:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/4 "2021-05-04T05:08:26Z")
> [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > a large segment of the population not contributing to the common weal of the Kingdom. Yeah, how dare the people who grow all your food and raise all your livestock not contribute! How about ‘it’s friggin’ wrong to claim you can own people’? ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/5 "2021-05-04T11:59:52Z")
The _window of discourse_ takes time and technique to move around, it may be more palatable to bite the pie away rather than shoving it complete in ones mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Cato\_the\_Future](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cato_the_future/32/270863_2.png) [@Cato\_the\_Future](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cato_the_Future)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/6 "2021-05-04T12:16:18Z")
> You are Correct slaves are not taxed, But we are based on the income our slaves produce, More income more taxes paid, it balances out, at least in my opinion So, allow me a simple example. I will use easy to calculate numbers. Suppose a holder has 100 slaves, and his annual income is 1,000,000 isk equivalent. If he pays 10% of his income, that is 100,000 isk. If his 100 slaves however were each making just 20,000 isk annually they would each pay 2,000 at 10% which together is 200,000. Which would still be on top of the still considerable income of the holder. Now it might be objected that 20,000 apiece amongst 100 former slaves exceeds the 1,000,000 that the holder originally had. This is the result (in purely made up numbers for simplicity) of the expansion of the economy that would occur with the addition of a new influx of consumers. This, I cannot demonstrate simply, and would require extensive explanation. I do believe a prominent Ni-Kunni economist has written a treatise about it though, if you are interested. These taxes of course, would go to the King’s coffers, and the King being that much more enriched, would be able to that much more effectively guide our Kingdom to greatness. > You also suggest Syndicate, Thukker Tribe, and other Pirates? Does it matter if Pirates are mad at us? No, certainly not. Pirates are scum, and Blooders the worst of all. However, political pragmatism demands that we consider the possibility of the Gallente and Minimatar uniting various fronts against us in an ideological crusade against slavery (or a political ploy disguised as a crusade). Moreover, the pirates did not threaten our very existence like the Triglavians. They did not sunder the secure route to our friends in Caldari, forcing us to go through hostile states to get there. And when pirates appear in our space, they are much easier for our miners to face than Triglavians. The liminality still threatens multiple sectors of space. Whether through ecological, economic, or spiritual concerns, the Trigs are a menace not to be forgotten, and have required extensive co-operation to hold off even as much as they were. > Does it? I know a few of the kingdoms Holders that do work still for the Navy, or the Government, taking leadership roles, generally as officers in the RKN. I meant no disrespect to our brave and noble holders. I spoke more of the Amarr holders, and of what the future may hold. (to future holders, the current ones being sublimely irreproachable) ---
**Author:** ![Cato\_the\_Future](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cato_the_future/32/270863_2.png) [@Cato\_the\_Future](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cato_the_Future)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/7 "2021-05-04T12:17:04Z")
Perhaps. What would be the first bite? ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/8 "2021-05-04T12:18:01Z")
You just offered the slice ---
**Author:** ![Cato\_the\_Future](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cato_the_future/32/270863_2.png) [@Cato\_the\_Future](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cato_the_Future)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/9 "2021-05-04T12:23:34Z")
> How about ‘it’s friggin’ wrong to claim you can own people’? To be perfectly clear to any readers (especially Royal Officials or members of the Amarr Ministry of Internal Order) I assert no wrongness on the part of the Kingdom. I bow to the King’s and the Church’s superior moral reasoning, and only attempt to offer a few ideas from an economic consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/10 "2021-05-04T12:46:02Z")
> [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > and only attempt to offer a few ideas from an economic consideration. Oh dear. Finances are not detached from symbols and the value people place upon them. How many digits of ISK would you trade for your eternal soul? For the opportunity of reclaiming tens, hundreds, thousands of other souls and leading them to salvation? The flesh (and bank account) is ephemeral, the soul is eternal. What price tag would you place in it? To most Amarrians, there can be no pricetag placed upon their work. No matter what it costs No matter what it takes No matter how many must be removed from their way ---
**Author:** ![Cato\_the\_Future](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cato_the_future/32/270863_2.png) [@Cato\_the\_Future](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cato_the_Future)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/11 "2021-05-04T16:52:41Z")
True. To be sure no price tag can be placed upon the soul. However, every war, every missionary endeavor, every reclamation, every one of our beautiful and elegant ships, every missile, and every crystal, can and does have a price tag put on it. While perhaps most Amarrians choose to ignore or downplay economics, it is the background efforts of us in finances that help make the Kingdom’s (and the Empire’s) glory possible. Let me rephrase your question back to you, and to others (and then let me stop before I talk too far out of turn on politics best left to nobles). How much are you willing to trade for continuing slavery? The Bleak Lands, Devoid, the Kingdom, the Empire, our Church? Has anyone forgotten the bloody first day of the Minmatar rebellion? Does anyone look back with fond memories on the Jove siding with these slaves? I would gladly give up slavery to save the Amarrian way of life any day. And our culture is so much more than slavery, even if it is all outsiders see. If I were forced to live in a wretched, hedonistic, godless federation, republic, or corporate run state, I would destroy my last clone and jettison my consciousness into the void. We have always been able to adapt to survive, and I believe it is time to adapt once more. For God, for King, and for everything good and noble that is Amarr. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/12 "2021-05-04T18:33:40Z")
> [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > How much are you willing to trade for continuing slavery? The Bleak Lands, Devoid, the Kingdom, the Empire, our Church? She’s Achuran. Caldari. She wouldn’t be paying anything. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > Has anyone forgotten the bloody first day of the Minmatar rebellion? I know plenty of folks who remember the centuries of abduction, rape, murder, and abuse that predated it—and which still continue to this day in places like the Kingdom. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > If I were forced to live in a wretched, hedonistic, godless federation, republic, or corporate run state, I would destroy my last clone and jettison my consciousness into the void. Well, maybe we’ll get to see what we can do about that, then… ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/13 "2021-05-05T00:17:20Z")
> [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > I would gladly give up slavery to save the Amarrian way of life any day. Well… it is one of the pillars. Removing it and still calling it Amarr would be like those non-alcoholic beers. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > And our culture is so much more than slavery, even if it is all outsiders see. _“There were three workers at a site once. When the first one was asked, “What are you doing?”, he replied, somewhat irritated, “Can’t you see? I’m trying to finish laying all these bricks so that I can finish my workday.” The second bricklayer was also asked the same question. And he replied, “Well, I just hope to finish building this wall today.” But when the last bricklayer was asked the same question, he replied, looking up with a twinkle in his eyes, “I’m helping to build a cathedral!”_ There is plenty around it, no doubt. I do visit some cathedrals and enjoy the choirs from time to time. I am awestruck by the beauty of the architecture, and the feeling of peace such a building brings when empty, and the power projection when it is full. I love the way the sunlight is changed by the masterful vitrals, and i pay my respects to the blood and sweat of those who designed and build it, be they Amarr or Minmatar. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > How much are you willing to trade for continuing slavery? Me? My “slaves” are ones that consent to it for mutual pleasure, i would trade a lot to keep doing it. An Amarr? From what history tells so far, they would trade, war, capture and breed a lot to keep doing it. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > Does anyone look back with fond memories on the Jove siding with these slaves? Actually, A lot of people do, > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > We have always been able to adapt to survive, and I believe it is time to adapt once more. Monocracit dogmatic religions and adaptation are not placed upon the same sentence in general, perhaps you are talking more about Minmatars or Caldari rather than your fellow Amarr. > [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > For God, for King, and for everything good and noble that is Amarr. Last i remember it was _Her Most Sublime and Imperial Majesty Catiz I_, i am not very familiar with most of the protocols over there, but do watch out for certain ones or else your Theology Council might be upset and want to have a word with you. ---
**Author:** ![Cato\_the\_Future](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cato_the_future/32/270863_2.png) [@Cato\_the\_Future](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cato_the_Future)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 1:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/14 "2021-05-05T01:48:40Z")
I apologize for the mistaken identity Achuran, but I would never have imagined I, a born and bred Khanid, being lectured on what it means to be Amarrian by a foreigner. Neither yours nor the Minmatar’s beliefs on what is or is not proper for my people is of any concern. I would expect such condescension from a Gallente, but not a Caldari. My thoughts were publicly stated, but meant for my fellow Khanid. Slavery is our internal affair to keep or do away with as we please. And unless I have been laboring in the hinter regions and dark places of space for far, far too long, I believe a King and Queen still sit on the throne of Khanid, that the Khanid Navy still patrols our space, that the Khanid symbol is still proudly displayed upon each and every stargate…and that the Theology Council still has no stations around our planets. But, yes, of course, all of it occurs under the grace of Her Most Sublime and Imperial Majesty Catiz I ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 1:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/15 "2021-05-05T01:56:48Z")
> [@Cato\_the\_Future](#): > > being lectured on what it means to be Amarrian by a foreigner. I interpreted it as sharing my outsider perspective and a dialogue, but since the interlocutor matters rather than the ideas exchanged, i will return to other affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Ithi\_Deritan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ithi_deritan/32/255445_2.png) [@Ithi\_Deritan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ithi_Deritan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 9:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/16 "2021-05-05T09:19:41Z")
> [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](#): > > Last i remember it was _Her Most Sublime and Imperial Majesty Catiz I_, i am not very familiar with most of the protocols over there, but do watch out for certain ones or else your Theology Council might be upset and want to have a word with you. Unless his Majesty King Khanid the III, changes rules and some of us have not been informed, we Holders act as the Theology Council within Kingdom Borders, though we do Listen to what the Theology Councils says, generally. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/17 "2021-05-05T09:51:48Z")
Based on their Majesties’ apparent contentment with Duke Chakaid’s incarceration by the Theology Council, awaiting trial under their authority, it seems clear that even the most favoured Khanid holders answer to the Empress’ Theology Council. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/18 "2021-05-05T11:09:22Z")
Now there, it was my ignorance regarding protocols and ranks, not a jab at anyone and definitely not fire to start a piss contest regarding His Majesty King Khanid the III and Her Most Sublime and Imperial Majesty Catiz I. I was just offering perspectives regarding the reach of the economic argument against slavery in a situation where money may not be the only, nor the most relevant consideration. The cluster is already facing a lot of stuff for infighting. I like a lot of angles from you, it was a compliment (at least the intention). ---
**Author:** ![Hun\_Tra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hun_tra/32/511052_2.png) [@Hun\_Tra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hun_Tra)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/19 "2021-05-05T13:54:27Z")
How about not be a coward and not take slaves? You can just hire a crew and actually like… Help them? Moralize them to work for you? Be actually a strong, brave leader who doesn’t fear chatting with crew? Slavery is just easy way out. Ridiculous. And Amarr think they’re superior. Cowards and fools. COWARDS! HAHAHA! ---
**Author:** ![Ithi\_Deritan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ithi_deritan/32/255445_2.png) [@Ithi\_Deritan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ithi_Deritan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125/20 "2021-05-05T17:52:52Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > Based on their Majesties’ apparent contentment with Duke Chakaid’s incarceration by the Theology Council, awaiting trial under their authority, it seems clear that even the most favoured Khanid holders answer to the Empress’ Theology Council. Oh I don’t Disagree there Lady Yassavi. I was more meaning in a general day-to-day month-to-month sense. Duke Chakaid Deserves to be answering to Her Imperial Majesty’s Theology council for his crimes. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-pragmatic-look-at-slavery-and-reform-in-khanid/309125.md?page=2)