# A Proposed Solution to the problem of Newcomers in Industry **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 29, 2021, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857 "2021-03-29T11:06:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/48 "2021-03-30T20:23:29Z")
Maybe they meant “Newcomers to Industry” not New Players ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/49 "2021-03-30T20:33:44Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but at the low end you’ll almost certainly make more ISK trading your capital, with fewer skills required and far less hauling. This is pretty much what this discussion is around, how industry could be improved for newer players. Part of that is making it a better choice. Depends on what, though. As i mentioned with the raven example, unless a new player is willing to stick with 0.1 isk wars and constantly sticking around jita and updating prices, most of them are just going to sell outright. Most new players will not have the patience to look at selling on longer terms. And selling outright is far, far worse than building. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because this thread seems to be specifially around the manufacture side of industry. The example OP provided, and the “Solutions” as he said, implied some mining or collecting of these “Specialized” products that only exist in these pocket dimensions or events. I think Mining deserves to be discussed too if were talking about industry. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/51 "2021-03-30T20:42:27Z")
this topic is like the new eden Davos ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/53 "2021-03-30T21:01:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Of course you need to travel. You’re unlikely to be buying the materials for ammo and selling the ammo in the same system that you manufacture it. Not to mention that you’re still going to make far less making ammo than you would simply by station trading which you can ALSO do while doing other things. Why would i need to travel to grab materials? Ore is available in most systems and loot from missions can be reprocessed into materials. Station trading can be done remotely but not as well as industry. Other players can’t interrupt your industry but they can interrupt your trading by placing better orders. As such station trading usually means staying close to a market. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > At no point did I suggest anyone needs to sit in a station to trade. Station trading just means you are buying and selling in the same station, it doesn’t require you to actually sit in the station at all times. If you are making more money station trading than industry you are doing it at a trade hub. This means staying close to the trade hub. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure they can, but either their queues will be idle waitig for materials, or they’ll haul in materials and produce more ammo than they’ll ever use and suddenly have transport that ammo for sale. Now they’re wasting their mission time hauling. But hey, if you want to spend your days making ammo while competent players pass you by, go right ahead. 🤣 If the alternative is to not use the building slots at all, why not? And both miners and mission runners are hauling stuff to markets anyways. Doing some industry on the side doesn’t affect that. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Again, no I’m not. As usual all you can do is throw up strawman after strawman. Ill quote it again: > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > As for beginners in industry overall, in the current state beginners shouldn’t do industry. They could make vastly more income doing nearly anything else, ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/55 "2021-03-30T21:26:14Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > People can also mess with industry in exactly the same way since your profitability depends on the market. I have a feeling you think minerals you mine are free though so your profit calculations are probably way off. As long as profitability is above zero (which it is) there’s no reason not to do it. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Again, it means the same region as one, and there are stations with enough trade to support station trading in most regions. Most regions…well even if that were true, it’s not ALL regions. And you have to have a greater SP investment to trade across an entire region. At the end of the day, effectively station trading means restricting where you go. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Like if you’re mission running and you’re not blitzing then you’re usually wasting your time. Except you know this advice doesn’t always apply. Especially to new players who may want to dabble in industry. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/57 "2021-03-30T21:48:50Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > There is if there are alternatives that you have to ignore to do it. How do you still not get that yet? But there AREN’T alternatives for the vast majority of new players. You’re telling people to upsticks and live near a trade hub, and if they don’t they arw doing it wrong. Where as they could do industry wherever they want and add it to their weekly/monthly haul. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > even though you’ll almost certainly have to pick a manufacturing location and stick to it if you have any hope of making ISK. It’s still profitable out of an npc station. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > but if they want to use it as a means to make ISK they should do something else. As long as profitability is above zero, there’s no reason not to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cendric_de_credsiu/32/409668_2.png) [@Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cendric_De_Credsiu)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/59 "2021-03-30T22:01:10Z")
> [@Solonius\_Rex](#): > > Lets take the Raven for example. Pretty standard L4 ship that a lot of new players use. > [@Solonius\_Rex](#): > > Current mat prices are around 352 million isk, if you were to buy outright. > [@Solonius\_Rex](#): > > Meanwhile, people are buying ravens at around 300 million isk, Selling at 340. > > New players arent going to be creating dozens and dozens of sell orders and wont be doing the 0.1 isk game either. > > So yes, It is profitable to build. Especially for new players. This isnt even a Niche item, its a very common item. If you are selling at immediate sale yes, if you are selling at the long term sell orders no you will be able to sell the mats for more. If you are serious about industry then that is something you start looking at fairly fast. You are also glossing over the fact that the raven blue print depending on market is 1.13 billion for a BPO. Yes you can buy copies from players and I think perhaps even get a copy from the occasional daily omega reward but at the end of the day that is a cost that needs to be factored in for consistent income from it. Perceptions tend to be stronger than reality of a situation from a new player perspective. Honestly speaking industry is one of the least accessible parts of the game from that new player perspective. Its over whelming, honestly I avoided it for the first year I played except for mining simply because of how complex it is and how much the market can change from day to day. We need to find a way to make industry a bit less complex, more intuitive to get started in, and a little better explained in game via menu’s or what have you. Yes the older players are going to always have the advantage but if you had read my entire post you would have seen that I repeatedly state that doesnt need to change. The perceptions of changes being designed to help the older player base is something that honestly is something we can change though. > [@Solonius\_Rex](#): > > I dont think a lot of new players are running L4s off the bat, especially not solo. When you consider how it takes time to grind l1, l2, l3 missions, then the rise is comparable to industry. If youre a brand new player, you dont start the game by flying L4s, and neither should you start industry by making a dent. L1 and L2 missions give out completely comparable, that is to say, very minimal amounts of ISK. When I started I was in L4 missions in about two months. Fast tracking combat skills and getting into a Battle Cruiser and fitting it in two months is entirely doable. I also had the advantage of an experienced player that got me into the game to teach me what skills to train to what levels to get them good enough to run them. Due to the time factor L3 missions might be slightly more ISK per hour compared to L4’s but I haven’t done the math on that. So yes starting out it is faster and better for a player to take the mission running path. Add in abyssal’s and with a Vexor drone fit, I can make about 10 to 15 mill an hour depending on drops. Vexor drone fit for ratting only takes about 12 days to get into. Thats pretty much the entire point that people are wanting to change. Its much better for a new player to actually do other activities than industry from the ISK making perspective. Personally I dont think that needs to change but rather the perceptions and I cant think of the right word but basically easier to understand and figure out rather than being the complex beast that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/60 "2021-03-30T22:23:13Z")
All I’m seeing is people making up non-existent and mythical “newcomer” players that people as a justification for either terrible changes, or useless vague ideas that amount to no more than “well do something, CCP”. Edit: Also, OP has never actually explained how his proposals actually help “newcomers”, however way he defines them. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/61 "2021-03-30T22:35:27Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yes, I am saying that a new player, who is new and therefore not yet settles in a long term home, should position themselves in range of a profitable activity rather that follow you crazy advice of inefficiently manufacturing stuff then hauling it periodically to a hub hoping not to get ganked on the way. My advice is that there is no reason not to do industry on top of what they are already doing. UnLeSs ThEiR StAtIoN TrAdInG 🤪 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You complained about having to stay near a station to trade and I pointed out that you pretty much have to stay near a station to manufacture stuff too. The difference being that only a small number of stations are suitable for trading. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/62 "2021-03-30T22:43:24Z")
> [@Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](#): > > If you are selling at immediate sale yes, if you are selling at the long term sell orders no you will be able to sell the mats for more. If you are serious about industry then that is something you start looking at fairly fast. Come on. New players arent going to be doing that, though. They dont have the patience and cannot afford to stay in jita playing the isk game. I mean, you just finished talking about how someone who decides to use or sell a raven cant afford any of its fittings and is therefore useless, implying they are impatient and cant wait to build more stuff and sell them for a profit to be able to afford fittings for that raven. And now youre saying theyre gonna be patient and wait till they sell something as fast-moving as minerals, where people are constantly contesting your sale price? Come on, man. Lets be honest here. > [@Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](#): > > You are also glossing over the fact that the raven blue print depending on market is 1.13 billion for a BPO. Yes you can buy copies from players and I think perhaps even get a copy from the occasional daily omega reward but at the end of the day that is a cost that needs to be factored in for consistent income from it. No, im not. I told you this already. Raven copies sell for 3.5 million isk each. 3.5 million isk? For a ship that sells right now for 300 million? are you kidding me? Having to account for 1 percent, ONE PERCENT of the cost of selling the item, is not something that needs to be factored in. ![EVEraven](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/6/9/1/691865b7aa930431f86691aa7764bfa278cdcba8.jpeg) Look at this. Look at this. 10 run 10/20 Raven blueprint for 2.4 million isk. 10 runs. Perfect copy. 2.4 million isk. What considerations need to be factored for something like this??? Can you please be honest with me here??? > [@Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](#): > > Perceptions tend to be stronger than reality of a situation from a new player perspective. Honestly speaking industry is one of the least accessible parts of the game from that new player perspective. Its over whelming, honestly I avoided it for the first year I played except for mining simply because of how complex it is and how much the market can change from day to day. We need to find a way to make industry a bit less complex, more intuitive to get started in, and a little better explained in game via menu’s or what have you. Again, Mining is the foothold into industry. You keep making the mistake of thinking that its not really industry until you actually build something, and that isnt true. You yourself admit that when you were new, you mined. Mining IS a part of the industry and its the first step into industry. So yes, because of mining, industry is one of the MOST accessible part of the game. You yourself admit it. > [@Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](#): > > When I started I was in L4 missions in about two months. Fast tracking combat skills and getting into a Battle Cruiser and fitting it in two months is entirely doable. I also had the advantage of an experienced player that got me into the game to teach me what skills to train to what levels to get them good enough to run them. Due to the time factor L3 missions might be slightly more ISK per hour compared to L4’s but I haven’t done the math on that. So yes starting out it is faster and better for a player to take the mission running path. Add in abyssal’s and with a Vexor drone fit, I can make about 10 to 15 mill an hour depending on drops. Vexor drone fit for ratting only takes about 12 days to get into. And, what, new players cannot get into mining straight away, let alone 2 months in? It takes 12 days to get into a mining barge too. How much ISK do those make an hour? Depending on the ore, what, 10, 12, 15 mill an hour? If you save it for a couple hours, couple days, you can even build something even bigger for more profit. Meanwhile, doing L4s is skill-intensive and ship-intensive, or it becomes time-intensive. If youre alone, you end up having to warp in and out because you cant handle the DPS, or you end up having to skip a lot of missions because they are too dangerous/tough for you. Id say entry level mining/industry is about the same as entry level L1-2 missions, wouldnt you agree? And by the time you hit 2-3 months, youve got a decent amount of skill for mining and building, but for missioning, especially L4s, its going to be really slow. > [@Cendric\_De\_Credsiu](#): > > Thats pretty much the entire point that people are wanting to change. Its much better for a new player to actually do other activities than industry from the ISK making perspective. Personally I dont think that needs to change but rather the perceptions and I cant think of the right word but basically easier to understand and figure out rather than being the complex beast that it is. Okay, so tell me. What part about industry is complex to a new player? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/64 "2021-03-30T23:28:52Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, you’ve made that clear. Let’s just hope you never get the opportunity to inflict your advice on new players. Compared to telling them that if they aren’t staying in one area of the game trading all day they are doing it wrong? Ok… 🤡 ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Darine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rich_darine/32/438327_2.png) [@Rich\_Darine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rich_Darine)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 12:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/66 "2021-03-31T00:07:54Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Opinion check: your facts are opinions. 🔥 🔥 🔥 > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Did you hurt yourself in your confusion? 🔥 🔥 🔥 > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > All I’m seeing is people making up non-existent and mythical “newcomer” players Same. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/67 "2021-03-31T01:11:47Z")
Newbros can gank industrialists. 💰 :partyparrot: 💰 ---
**Author:** ![Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vaendil_reyksen/32/259961_2.png) [@Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vaendil_Reyksen)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 3:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/68 "2021-03-31T03:10:38Z")
You’re full of it. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/69 "2021-03-31T15:39:21Z")
> [@Rich\_Darine](#): > > Same Yes, we all know this game is dying. There are no new players. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Krimmins](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krimmins/32/374944_2.png) [@Krimmins](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Krimmins)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/70 "2021-04-01T14:57:08Z")
We need an RMT option for sp. Give better ISK for RMTing for plex. In fact, have a direct IRL money - PLEX. We also need direct IRL money - SP. This is what will make this game better. You get more money, we get more content. ---
**Author:** ![Lara\_Agnon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lara_agnon/32/377122_2.png) [@Lara\_Agnon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lara_Agnon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/71 "2021-04-02T15:59:32Z")
right-click blueprint and click on ‘use blueprint’ without having it inside the player ship cargohold. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 5:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/72 "2021-04-06T05:49:28Z")
A lot of people in this thread need to learn about Opportunity Costs and Market Cornering. Pretty much, Mining is a moot point here, we are talking about Industry and in that case the role Mining fills can easily be filled by the Market too, so it’s not specific to Industry. And frankly, that’s one of the first things I learned in EVE so I’m surprised so many here don’t already get it, there is no point mining that ore if someone is selling it for cheaper than you’d make it, you waste time which has a value. And also, sure Newbies can make some profits out of plenty of T1, _but they are not in control_. No I was not saying newbs should be able to make billions, I was saying they should be able to impact the game. How hard would it be to eviscerate that Raven corner by lowering the margins to the point that people without the skills and BPs (originals or copies) get priced out of the market? Like Opportunity Costs, it is a real thing and has to be accounted for. What I am saying is that opportunities should exist in what is already a pretty cornered part of the game for New Players to get a foot in the door and actually compete, instead of just being let it for now. And indeed producing outside the trading hubs is one of those types of opportunities, although not a very viable one since right now the game seems to be prone to Industrial and Market centralization. ---
**Author:** ![0Lona\_0ltor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0lona_0ltor/32/336276_2.png) [@0Lona\_0ltor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0Lona_0ltor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/73 "2021-04-06T08:01:43Z")
CCP should make a video of the history of T2BPO then they would not need to worry about newcomers to industry anymore. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2021, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-proposed-solution-to-the-problem-of-newcomers-in-industry/302857/74 "2021-07-05T08:02:41Z")
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