# A significant update to Industry **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** feedback, official\ **Created:** [March 26, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303 "2021-03-26T15:00:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/295 "2021-03-28T17:17:14Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > Your desired context is not the context of the discussion. What? 🤨 > [@Flanidia](#): > > You can duck the discussion if you’d like. How is inviting you to a discussion “ducking” the discussion? > [@Flanidia](#): > > Please feel free to provide them. Why do I have to provide the stats when you made the clai- you know what, I’m not even going to bother. Nice trolling, take care. o/ > [@Arrendis](#): > > Btw, @Xuixien, I realize that my fingers overran my brain at one bit, and re: ‘decoupling’, I wound up leaving off the fact that the mineral impacts were _never_ part of ‘that funny problem EVE has’, because the mineral impacts were 100% predicrable, and predicted, even if somehow, CCP didn’t see it coming. > > The bottleneck, again, isn’t the minerals—if it were, there wouldn’t have been massive stockpiles of minerals built up that CCP needed over a year of scarcity to _begin_ to draw down. The bottleneck is man-hours. It’s simply ‘how much time is Player A willing to do X?’. If doing X becomes more onerous without commensurate increase in dopamine release, that number goes down. Okay, but I’m not talking about bottlenecks. Decoupling is something different. Let me give you an example: Battery A uses a steel casing and lithium-ions. My frypan is made out of steel and ceramic. The cost of Battery A and the price of my frypan are _decoupled_: The price of Battery A can go up without affecting the price of frypans - if lithium increases in value. If the price of steel goes up - both products become more expensive. Get it? Now if Battery A used an aluminum case, Battery A and my frypan would be completely decoupled. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/296 "2021-03-28T17:28:22Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > What? Well you see when CCP introduces sweeping changes to the entire ship production system, a claim that the discussion should only be about a small subset of those changes is quite silly. > [@Xuixien](#): > > How is inviting you to a discussion “ducking” the discussion? See above > [@Xuixien](#): > > Why do I have to provide the stats when you made the clai- you know what, I’m not even going to bother. Nice trolling, take care. o/ [https://www.adam4eve.eu/market\_trends.php?board=ships&metric=vol&time=month&order=asc®ionID=10000002&tradeValue=-1](https://www.adam4eve.eu/market_trends.php?board=ships&metric=vol&time=month&order=asc®ionID=10000002&tradeValue=-1) That’s ships sorted by volume by type. Note that the highest volume T1 ships are pretty much all battleships (well and the orca). I look forward to your counter evidence : ) ---
**Author:** ![Vela\_Lightbringer\_Ho](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vela_lightbringer_ho/32/255621_2.png) [@Vela\_Lightbringer\_Ho](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vela_Lightbringer_Ho)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/297 "2021-03-28T17:28:23Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > Battery A uses a steel casing and lithium-ions. My frypan is made out of steel and ceramic. The cost of Battery A and the price of my frypan are _decoupled_: The price of Battery A can go up without affecting the price of frypans - if lithium increases in value. If the price of steel goes up - both products become more expensive. Get it? Now if Battery A used an aluminum case, Battery A and my frypan would be completely decoupled. So by your own example, Avatars and Rifters are _not_ decoupled. Both still require t1 minerals. You’re so deep into the knob gobbling you can’t even follow your own arguments. Now, it’s true that T1 BCs and below (not faction) have been _slightly_ decoupled from the rest of the ships, but they’ve added a coupling on all faction ships and T1 BSs to capitals/supercapitals. And T2 are also going to be coupled with those, if we follow the example of the exhumers. So, if the _intent_ was to decouple, it’s failed. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/298 "2021-03-28T17:35:43Z")
> [@Vela\_Lightbringer\_Ho](#): > > So by your own example, Avatars and Rifters are _not_ decoupled. Both still require t1 minerals. You’re so deep into the knob gobbling you can’t even follow your own arguments. No, you simply misunderstood. Right now Rifters and Avatars are coupled because they require all the same inputs: minerals from asteroids. After the change, they will be decoupled, because Avatars will require material inputs that Rifters do not. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, my apologies. @Arrendis I found what you were talking about earlier. It was CCP Soundwave and CCP Ytterbium making the statements: “_Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change._” “_If you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today._” I can’t find any statement from CCP along the lines of “if you could _do_ it before, you can still _do_ it”. All such quotes I’ve been able to find are regarding flying hulls. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/299 "2021-03-28T17:43:37Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > But it is, right? Because there’s more stuff needed for production. No, because the point of entry is ‘Planetary Interaction’. It doesn’t matter how many different profitable PI chains there are, it’s still _one_ activity. One point of entry. > [@Xuixien](#): > > Yes, and many people have wanted to, but haven’t actually done it, because of barriers of entry. Which are now lower. No, they’re not lower. Heck, if you’re looking at expanded PI chains as a new avenue of entry, you’re looking at expansion of one of the worst impediments—the amount of time needed to get started in PI, and the sheer boredom of running it, afterwards. > [@Xuixien](#): > > So, planets I mine myself are free? Ok, either that’s being deliberately obtuse, or you misunderstood what I meant there. I’ll assume the latter, and that’s on me for unclear phrasing. I was not saying that they’ll have to run their own planets in order to improve their profit margins. I was saying that the profit margins only start to really provide a decent ROI once you start getting into the product lines that require PI. A large number of industrialists prefer to run their own PI chains, so they know they have steady supply on one of the inputs that, precisely because of just how _bad_ the PI system is, isn’t exactly burning up the ‘I WANT TO DO THAT!!’ charts. So they’ll need more alts, just to tread water. > [@Xuixien](#): > > Exactly. Which means it increases the varieties of planets that make money. Which means more systems are viable. Instead of “does the system have XYZ planet” it’ll be more “the system has planets, we’re good to go.” Which doesn’t provide additional points of entry. We’re not talking about a situation like RL, where the player can’t relocate easily. Heck, they can just put an alt or two in the systems they’re doing PI in. Getting to the systems with the right planets _isn’t_ a barrier to entry, thus, making more systems profitable doesn’t provide more access points. The barrier to entry on PI is… the mechanics of Planetary Interaction… which haven’t changed since Hilmar forced them to streamline things from 300 clicks to 180. > [@Xuixien](#): > > I love setting PI up. You are in a very small subset of the industrial subset of the game. Seriously. the PI system is pretty universally reviled, _especially_ by newer players. It’s not intuitive, it’s needlessly complicated, and it’s easy to completely screw things up and not know it until you come back a week or a month later and find nothing done, and there were no warnings given at all. It’s bad. > [@Xuixien](#): > > You’re basically spinning in circles here No, I’m making the point that what you’re calling ‘more points of entry’ aren’t _actual_ points of entry. They’re just more window-dressing, because the barrier to entry is the mechanics, not the lack of viable varieties. If the lack of viable varieties is not a barrier to entry, then increasing the number of viable varieties does not remove barriers to entry / increase points of entry. > [@Xuixien](#): > > Except it does, right? Before, a Rifter and an Avatar required all the same inputs: asteroid minerals. Except it doesn’t, because the Rifter and the Avatar didn’t actually impact one another. I can _still_ express the cost of an Avatar in Rifters, all I have to do is find the common input: player time. The fact that they had the same mineral types needed doesn’t mean that they impacted one another. The stockpiles of minerals were just too large for supply-side issues _at the mineral level_ to be a real consideration. > [@Xuixien](#): > > This is hairsplitting over a rather minor point. You don’t need SOV to build battleships, dreadnaughts, or carriers. I could say that’s moving the goalposts, since you were comparing ‘a Rifter and an Avatar’, y’know. > [@Xuixien](#): > > No, it actually doesn’t. You specifically said “If it’s easier for new players to build things - in particularly the things they can fly”, and then immediately had the guy in the Mining Frigate (which takes Mining Frigates) building Rifters (which takes another skill entirely). > [@Xuixien](#): > > And this is one of those cases, right? Because instead of having to keep track of the 10 specific material profiles for 10 different frigates, you only need to keep track of 1 material profile. That limited subset of industrial activity is, yes. But again, you’re the one staying focused on a very small part of industry while throwing around accusations of myopia. The broader pattern matters, especially when you’re talking about retaining players over the long term. > [@Xuixien](#): > > Feels like a shifting goalpost TBH. Not all newbies are alphas and not all alphas are newbies. In fact, CCP’s approach to design has been to assume that all newbies _are_ alphas. That’s why the push so hard for the PLEX sales etc to ‘new’ players to ‘Go Omega!’ They’re designing with the intention that newbies are alphas, and they want to upsell them into becoming paying customers. If that’s the design philosophy, that’s the structure you have to evaluate on in order to evaluate how well it will achieve what they intend. > [@Xuixien](#): > > You haven’t actually refuted any of my points, right? Repeatedly, but you seem to prefer willful ignorance and denial. > [@Xuixien](#): > > you gloss over 80% of what someone has said to you. Which I haven’t done. If you attempt to refute a statement of mine by arguing about something completely different, me ignoring the completely unrelated attempted distraction isn’t ‘glossing over’ what you’ve said, it’s staying on topic and refusing to engage the derailment. > [@Xuixien](#): > > This is opinion again. I find all of this very engaging. You are, again, a tiny minority inside a tiny minority, according to CCP’s own statements when they redid PI several years ago—and even then, admitted it needed a lot more work… which has _not_ been done, at all. > [@Xuixien](#): > > For example, you’re making very broad, blanket statements. Except again, no. I’m saying that while the initial, very first steps may have been streamlined, the long-term picture has only become more complicated. The majority of industrialist players do not content themselves with ‘I will build frigates for all of time’. They have ambitions, and they make plans. Focusing on ‘this one part of things’ isn’t ‘nuance’. It’s just trying to narrow the scope of the discussion to a point that suits _your_ specific agenda, but not necessarily that of the average industrialist in EVE. > [@Xuixien](#): > > Well that’s not EVE anymore. Yeah, it very much is, because that’s who CCP is still asking to give them money. > [@Xuixien](#): > > What did they call it? **ChAoS** era? Or is that over now? I stopped keeping tracking TBH. That ended 3 months after it started, when the BlackOut crashed activity numbers, CCP scrambled to try to make everyone forget how badly they sabotaged their own game, and at least one extremely zealous CCP proponent of the BlackOut suddenly ended up no longer with company. ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/300 "2021-03-28T17:50:07Z")
please just stop… %99 percent of pilots here actually not agree with him… people are angry and sad… resentfull… He is here to supress anyone who come with opposite ideas and he will not stop… its enough to understand just look at his other posts… What i have observed in EvE Online forums … there is always 2-3 people like him comes up… and just be loud and try to supress anyone… let the forum flood itself… people will not fallow him… noone does… let him talk to himself… and adore his own ideas and keep clapping CCP himself while everyone not agree… Our opinions pretty much worthles… i had seen this so many times… I had work like 15 years … in a very big city… had been leading the crise teams… one day… there is a new municipality leader assigned to city… and thay man made a meeting with all cities crise interference teams… He told something: " you will listen citizennsss !! you will listen themmm let them talk and write … and you will take the gass from them ( chicken translation from turkish … means… when people talk and complain and write those things… that takes the inner preassure out… and that also prevent them to turn into action… so its way of pasifise and neutralise things… Now those people who put their anger into words actually CCP taking the gas out… ) they he said… you will give them a gas… ( this gas means you will just tell things like we are doing this for the future for your kids future ect ect… this is for your own behalf … doesnt seem so may be atm but will be good for you… ) that was the day i just resigned from everything… Because i knew what has been coming… and it did come… just let it be… if you can ---
**Author:** ![Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vaendil_reyksen/32/259961_2.png) [@Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vaendil_Reyksen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/301 "2021-03-28T17:52:17Z")
@Arrendis👏 I’m in awe at your patience and your ability to stay focused on the topic. Your posts are **GOLD**. Thank you for posting on this forum. It certainly doesn’t deserve you. ---
**Author:** ![leavwiz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/leavwiz/32/235353_2.png) [@leavwiz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/leavwiz)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/302 "2021-03-28T17:57:29Z")
so, about PI. the mind numbing , carpal tunnel inducing part of the game that keeps getting attached to industrial work. The big change to PI a couple of years back was to (in theory) make it less tedious. it did, in fact, reduce over 160 clicks during planet setup. There are still many aspects that just suck the life out of doing PI that should be changed before they make it essential to yet another series of blueprints. example : extractor resets without having to select the head, stop , start , submit. just a simple restart button. speaking of submit function, why is it clear across the screen from the start stop button\>? Access planet button only appears when you are next to the planet instead of at undock, you only need to be undocked to interact with the POCO. so in addition to the warp to button there should be an access button. and regardless where you stand on the entry level discussion. if a builder wants to be self sufficient and wasnt doing PI before, it is yet another set of skills to buy (insert isk sink here) and train into. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Rue](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_rue/32/466221_2.png) [@Marcus\_Rue](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Rue)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/303 "2021-03-28T18:07:38Z")
Great! another level of BS to go through just to build a ship, not that there is already levels of BS and running around the Galaxy to do already, now they want to add more… wtf ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Duchess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sweet_duchess/32/262777_2.png) [@Sweet\_Duchess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sweet_Duchess)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/304 "2021-03-28T18:08:24Z")
> [@Aliea\_Konovalev](#): > > You don’t really think anyone else is going to read all of that do you? I do. A post from Arendis is better than the whole Uni-Wiki website. ---
**Author:** ![Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vaendil_reyksen/32/259961_2.png) [@Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vaendil_Reyksen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/305 "2021-03-28T18:17:09Z")
> [@Marcus\_Rue](#): > > not that there is already levels of BS and running around the Galaxy to do already Right on. I started calculating the time between having to travel and actual play time. It’s unreal. It’s like 3/4 travelling vs 1/4 doing something that I’d call playing. And they want us to have to do more running around ( probably to please the gate campers and run-of-the-mill gankers ) well, no. Not going to do that. Just going to log in, get the SP and get skills trained then it’s back to a movie or another game. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/306 "2021-03-28T18:20:56Z")
> [@Vaendil\_Reyksen](#): > > Thank you for posting on this forum. It certainly doesn’t deserve you. I know. 😉 However, right now, RL calls, so… via con carne! ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/307 "2021-03-28T18:39:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > No, because the point of entry is ‘Planetary Interaction’. It doesn’t matter how many different profitable PI chains there are, it’s still _one_ activity. One point of entry. But there’s more than just PI, right? There’s also ice, moon mining, reactions, gas harvesting, etc. What you’re doing here is zero’ing in on one thing, to the exclusion of all the others, with the purpose of muddling the discussion up and shifting goalposts/definitions about regarding what a “point of entry” is, and later in the discussion you try to conflate _a different sort of barrier to gameplay_ (ie whether players will enjoy the activity). Stop that. X got simpler and more streamlined, and easier to jump into. Y got harder and more complicated: _but_ it creates more opportunities for players to get involved. This… hasn’t changed because of our argument or your nitpicking my analogies. > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, they’re not lower. Heck, if you’re looking at expanded PI chains as a new avenue of entry PI only applies to large ship production. Once again you’re tunnel visioning on Y to the exclusion of X, when the case is X and Y. > [@Arrendis](#): > > you’re looking at expansion of one of the worst impediments—the amount of time needed to get started in PI, and the sheer boredom of running it, afterwards. Once again this is opinion and preference. A point of entry is a point of entry regardless of how boring _you_ find it. > [@Arrendis](#): > > A large number of industrialists prefer to run their own PI chains, so they know they have steady supply on one of the inputs that, precisely because of just how _bad_ the PI system is, isn’t exactly burning up the ‘I WANT TO DO THAT!!’ charts. So they’ll need more alts, just to tread water. Yeah see, I just see opportunity here. “X kinda sucks and no one wants to do it, but there’s a fair bit of ISK to be made? I’ll do X.” But that’s still player agency, right? Perhaps the way PI works can be changed to make it less daunting for you, but that’s actually a separate discussion. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Which doesn’t provide additional points of entry. You really zero’d in on PI and ran with it, huh? Is this a “trying to win a discussion by proxy of only 1 minor point” thing? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Getting to the systems with the right planets _isn’t_ a barrier to entry I never said it was. I was just pointing out a positive side effect. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You are in a very small subset of the industrial subset of the game. Seriously. the PI system is pretty universally reviled, _especially_ by newer players. It’s not intuitive, it’s needlessly complicated, and it’s easy to completely screw things up and not know it until you come back a week or a month later and find nothing done, and there were no warnings given at all. It’s bad. Sure, fine, whatever. This is, again, well besides the point and going deep into the weeds now. Let’s bring it back to what we’re actually talking about (unless you want to start a new discussion about PI mechanics, I’d be more than happy to). I don’t find this nitpicking about, PI _in particular_ and whether or not players like setting it up _specifically_ very compelling. I don’t find this to be one of your stronger points in this discussion and we both know you can do better than that. > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, I’m making the point that what you’re calling ‘more points of entry’ aren’t _actual_ points of entry. They’re just more window-dressing, because the barrier to entry is the mechanics, not the lack of viable varieties. If the lack of viable varieties is not a barrier to entry, then increasing the number of viable varieties does not remove barriers to entry / increase points of entry. Uh, you were saying that the new changes lock players out of industry… I was explaining how it gives them more options to participate in industry. Where did we start talking about different things here? I was never talking about the specific mechanics of PI or X activity. You’re going meta and talking about whether players will like doing X or Y based on your appraisal of the specific mechanics. This is what we call “yeah but”-ing. I’m just talking about the changes to industry _as such_. The specific mechanics of activity X or Y is a different discussion. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Except it doesn’t, because the Rifter and the Avatar didn’t actually impact one another. I never said they did. I feel like you’re not even listening to me. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I can _still_ express the cost of an Avatar in Rifters, all I have to do is find the common input: player time. The fact that they had the same mineral types needed doesn’t mean that they impacted one another. Okay let me see if I can make this easier to understand: Rifter uses Zydrine. Titan uses Zydrine. In an effort to increase the cost of titans, CCP makes Zydrine exceedingly rare. Now Rifters are more expensive. Because they’re coupled. But now, because titans use materials that Rifters don’t, they’re decoupled: CCP can increase or decrease the cost of a titan without directly impacting the price of a Rifter. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I could say that’s moving the goalposts, since you were comparing ‘a Rifter and an Avatar’, y’know. Which would be haggling over the analogy rather than the point being made. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You specifically said “If it’s easier for new players to build things - in particularly the things they can fly”, and then immediately had the guy in the Mining Frigate (which takes Mining Frigates) building Rifters (which takes another skill entirely). And? Newbies/alphas can fly both. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That limited subset of industrial activity is, yes. But I can do the same thing, right? I can say that what you’re talking about is “a limited subset of industrial activity”. > [@Arrendis](#): > > But again, you’re the one staying focused on a very small part of industry Really? Because this entire discussion I have acknowledge the increased complexity of building battleships and above. > [@Arrendis](#): > > In fact, CCP’s approach to design has been to assume that all newbies _are_ alphas. That’s why the push so hard for the PLEX sales etc to ‘new’ players to ‘Go Omega!’ They’re designing with the intention that newbies are alphas, and they want to upsell them into becoming paying customers. If that’s the design philosophy, that’s the structure you have to evaluate on in order to evaluate how well it will achieve what they intend. Do you have a Devblog on that? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Which I haven’t done. If you attempt to refute a statement of mine by arguing about something completely different, me ignoring the completely unrelated attempted distraction isn’t ‘glossing over’ what you’ve said, it’s staying on topic and refusing to engage the derailment. Projection. That’s actually what you’re doing when you nitpick about PI being a pain to set up. > [@Arrendis](#): > > They have ambitions, and they make plans. Focusing on ‘this one part of things’ isn’t ‘nuance’. I’m not focused on either sub-BS production nor BS and above. I’m looking at entirety of the changes. You’re focused on the complexity of building larger ships. I’m saying X and Y. You’re saying just one… > [@Arrendis](#): > > It’s just trying to narrow the scope of the discussion to a point that suits _your_ specific agenda, but not necessarily that of the average industrialist in EVE. I don’t really have an “agenda”. I roll with the punches and look for the opportunities that present themselves. Perhaps you’re projecting? Anyway, this has been an engaging discussion but you seem to be steering into bad faith waters. What’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/309 "2021-03-28T18:42:36Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > But I can do the same thing, right? I can say that what you’re talking about is “a limited subset of industrial activity”. You could but you’d be wrong…non-faction BC and below T1 ship production is the far smaller of the activity set. I showed you the data and you, somewhat conveniently, decided to ignore that. ---
**Author:** ![Vela\_Lightbringer\_Ho](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vela_lightbringer_ho/32/255621_2.png) [@Vela\_Lightbringer\_Ho](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vela_Lightbringer_Ho)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/310 "2021-03-28T18:49:47Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > You could but you’d be wrong…non-faction BC and below T1 ship production is the far smaller of the activity set. I showed you the data and you, somewhat conveniently, decided to ignore that. They’re obviously not trying to find truth or argue facts. We wouldn’t still be there otherwise! Either way, CCP isn’t listening so it’s pointless anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Einh\_Laen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/einh_laen/32/264047_2.png) [@Einh\_Laen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Einh_Laen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/311 "2021-03-28T19:00:07Z")
Please make a specialized Gas Transporter akin to Epithal, preferably with the ability to compress it to liquid form. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vaendil_reyksen/32/259961_2.png) [@Vaendil\_Reyksen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vaendil_Reyksen)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/312 "2021-03-28T19:09:32Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > However, right now, RL calls, so… via con carne! Arrendis, hasta la pasta and take care. EVE needs more players like you and I’ll be watching closely to see if the stream actually picks up your questions. You got the most votes so there is no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Kato\_Szafarchek](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kato_szafarchek/32/431271_2.png) [@Kato\_Szafarchek](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kato_Szafarchek)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/313 "2021-03-28T19:20:50Z")
This whole blog post reads like CCP accidentally let their lawyers get to the computer with all of the bloody legaleze talk and the lack of simple english, for example; > Normalize the value proposition between different activities in EVE What the bloody hell is this supposed to mean? > The path for aspiring builders in New Eden will be clearer than ever Everything I’ve read makes it very clear that industry will become even more of a chore than ever. What does make me angry is this half truth in the blog saying new component requirements for battleships and up, and conveniently forgetting to mention that so many other ships are going to need these components as well. At this point in time it’s becoming more and more clear that CCP is intentionally making everything in-game that involves making isk more tedious and annoying than ever, producing the side-effect of increasing the cost of modules and ships, while at the same time still trying to force players into a more migratory playstyle and throwing the middle finger at everyone who had been told for the past decade of the importance and safety in locking down a little piece of space to call your own. It’s all I’ve seen from these updates, and if CCP truly thinks all of this will somehow create more conflict, they know absolutely nothing about the game’s own history. There’s that little phenomenon known as the “blue donut” that resulted from similar attempts in the past. I had allowed my subscription to expire and thus far I haven’t seen anything in these updates to convince me to renew my subscription or exchange any of my hard-earned income for ingame rewards. I have many other games I enjoy that I will go play. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/314 "2021-03-28T21:43:56Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > If you’re not _already_ an established, profitable industrialist, this change is… ‘just don’t bother’. … well, yes. I’m not sure what’s the problem ? People who have invested in BPO (industrialistes) have … INVESTED in BPO. purchasing them, researching them, that costs a LOT of resources. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And if you’re banking on ‘I can build all the Punishers I want’… well, good luck getting an actual return on your investment any time this decade. but you were the one complaining it’s too difficult for newbs to get into. Now it became much easier. profit is totally another thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cpt\_WhiteEye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cpt_whiteeye/32/473463_2.png) [@Cpt\_WhiteEye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cpt_WhiteEye)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303/315 "2021-03-28T22:12:04Z")
How exactly did it become easier to get into industry? Can you elaborate? And why would anyone with a valnut of brain start building anything after they done with carrer arcs? As such a simple thing as checking material prices against product prices will disencourage anyone from getting into industry. Just the fact that 0/0 BPO/BPCs will never have a positive return on the ISK side is enough and you need to take to 3. party websites with skill calculators/blueprint calculators to even have the slightest clue if you can make money doing industry is another huge deterrent. Player set prices or not, no one will ever catch up or grab a piece of the market from the 15 years in industry/trading giants. Let alone new players. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303.md?page=14) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-significant-update-to-industry/302303.md?page=16)