# A solution to Nullsec mining problems **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 24, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170 "2019-12-24T16:41:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/42 "2019-12-29T01:47:36Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > You already know that it doesn’t matter how big your alpha or DPS is if you cannot apply that DPS. > > Right? Yes, most my focus has been optimizing your lifespan 🙂 I think if I dump something I can get your pg in the right place and we can maximize your missiles at the expense of drones and save a rig…hold on. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 1:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/43 "2019-12-29T01:48:57Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > I think if I dump something I can get your pg in the right place and we can maximize your missiles at the expense of drones and save a rig…hold on. I don’t know what any of these mean. These are just words. How are you going to “maximize missiles at the expense of drones”? ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/44 "2019-12-29T02:10:07Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > I don’t know what any of these mean. These are just words. How are you going to “maximize missiles at the expense of drones”? If I could have stuffed in another ballistic you’d more than compensate for the drones and you could do ewar drones instead. Doesn’t matter: I think I’m settling on toward this. _Justification_ The nearly +20,000EHP more than offsets the loss of 10800 hp over the charges of your nanites. However, saving the PG (Powergrid) meant you should be able to dump that Current Router? Adding the nano rigs makes up a significant difference of that 10,800 hp over 8 cycles anyway. _In the old build_ ~215hp/s drops to ~122hp/s which is unsustainable if your fight lasts 108 seconds. But at 7,500 raw hp and less resistance. _In new build_ this goes from ~159hp/s to 59hp/s but across 13,500hp and slightly higher res. You had to sacrifice the resistance in that IFF damage control cuz of the CPU. If life span is your concern, the EHP on this alone should put you closer to that 51,000hp raw you took with your rep build? (from the killboard). Not including the rep power you still retain. So go with the T2 missiles and do 400+dps. They are cheaper too? [Typhoon, \*Scoots Choco’s Typhoon] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Large Ancillary Armor Repairer 500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Faint Scoped Warp Disruptor Fleeting Compact Stasis Webifier Heavy Capacitor Booster II Heavy Stasis Grappler II Heavy Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Large Nanobot Accelerator I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I Warrior II x5 Ogre II x4 Cap Booster 3200 x2 Nanite Repair Paste x384 Inferno Fury Cruise Missile x325 Caldari Navy Inferno Cruise Missile x324 ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/45 "2019-12-29T02:13:47Z")
Also, sorry that took a while, but you’re build is pretty ■■■■■■■ tight, so there was very little room to find where optimization could be had. I think I managed to find it though. Should work out the way the _justification_ suggests. Longer life span offsetting the raw rep power, you’re not worried about alpha, and what killed you anyway was the cycles from that ikitursa? I’m assuming he killed you with his disintegration ray and not his hammerheads 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/46 "2019-12-29T02:21:35Z")
Ok, let’s get some things sorted. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Weak on DPS, Your fit is it exact same on DPS, since you don’t actually change anything. In fact, going with your recommendation for T2 Missiles, you do LESS DPS because your application become horrible. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > tank breaks in 8 cycles, Your fit replaces a one of the reps for a plate. Making it _even more_ susceptible to “breaking” in 8 cycles. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > you have to fly expensive implants to squeeze in that fit So your fit, requires the pilot to replace a EG-601 (800,000 ISK) for an EG-602 (6,000,000 ISK). ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/b/4bd12d6364dc048967a1e629118cc919fc345cb0.png) And… in exchange I get like 2% more resists. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > so there was very little room to find where optimization could be had. How did you know it was “suboptimal” then? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Should work out the way the _justification_ suggests. But… why didn’t you ever ask me what my purpose with this ship was? Did you just come up with your own justification and tweaked my fit to suit your own justifications? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Longer life span offsetting the raw rep power, you’re not worried about alpha, and what killed you anyway was the cycles from that ikitursa? It wasn’t, but you should already know that, right? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > I’m assuming he killed you with his disintegration ray and not his hammerheads Again, it wasn’t, but you should already know that, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/47 "2019-12-29T02:22:22Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Your fit replaces a one of the reps for a plate. Making it _even more_ susceptible to “breaking” in 8 cycles. It’s going to break anyway. It’s more optimal during the cycle time. You’re basically dead after that either way. > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > So your fit, requires the pilot to replace a EG-601 (800,000 ISK) for an EG-602 (6,000,000 ISK). This might be an oversight, it SHOULD be less in PG based on the numbers it showed me. One sec. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/48 "2019-12-29T02:23:23Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > It’s going to break anyway. Going to break against what? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > It’s more optimal during the cycle time. You’re basically dead after that either way. Surely someone who claims to know a lot about PvP should already know this. Just saying “Well, you’d be dead anyway” doesn’t help anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/49 "2019-12-29T02:24:43Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > “Well, you’d be dead anyway” doesn’t help anyone. No I mean you’re literally dead anyway after the nanites need to reload, with either fit. So we don’t need to consider past that point 🙂 BTW mine says the PGs are lower for the build I sent you, not sure if that’s just a problem with the in-game fitting tool, which sucks. _So I’m told_ You might need to deactivate and reactivate a module to get an accurate number. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/50 "2019-12-29T02:25:47Z")
I didn’t consider the neut, but I’m not sure how much it’s helping you. It’s on the fence. You can probably use it to escape, but have you had luck in that? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/51 "2019-12-29T02:27:28Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > No I mean you’re literally dead anyway after the nanites need to reload, with either fit. So we don’t need to consider past that point That’s wrong though. You can still run Reps after the Nanite paste runs out. But you knew that already, right? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > So I’m told Told by whom? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > I didn’t consider the neut, but I’m not sure how much it’s helping you. It’s on the fence. You can probably use it to escape, but have you had luck in that? You know what the purpose of this neut is though, right? I’m surprised you didn’t consider it, given how important it is on many battleship fits for the purpose that I’m looking for… ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/52 "2019-12-29T02:27:43Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Going to break against what? Anything that does more than 122dps. Which is almost everything in that ship class. _Correction, anything that does more than 122dps factoring your resistances_. So what you want is longevity, not a solid repair-wall. The build I gave you is longer living, even if its repair-wall is inevitably weaker. If you swap for the T2 missiles you’ll do more dps, but I think that’s a cop-out anyway, I couldn’t improve your dps except by gaining tiers. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/53 "2019-12-29T02:29:59Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Anything that does more than 122dps. Which is almost everything **in that ship class.** What ship class are we talking about? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > So what you want is longevity, not a solid repair-wall. I’m not sure what you mean by this. They’re the same…? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > The build I gave you is longer living, even if its repair-wall is inevitably weaker. If the rep is weaker, then you’re even worse off…?? > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > If you swap for the T2 missiles you’ll do more dps, but I think that’s a cop-out anyway, **I couldn’t improve your dps except by gaining tiers.** So… when you said my fit was “Weak on DPS”, what did you mean by that? And you’re still avoiding the big problem of application. Yes, on paper it says a bigger number. But when you actually fight, you’ll find out that you cannot apply that DPS, meaning you’ll do less. But you knew that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/54 "2019-12-29T02:33:37Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by this. They’re the same…? To me a repair-wall means your tank won’t break to a solo-dps of a ship in the same class. I mean there are always some outlyers like catalyst does 600damage alpha…for instance. Way above a ship in its class. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/55 "2019-12-29T02:36:32Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > So… when you said my fit was “Weak on DPS”, what did you mean by that? at first glance it’s subpar, but you’re not using T2. So it’s probable that you just didn’t train to use T2 missiles, I don’t think that 80km is helping you though. It’s a cop out to say go from higher meta to higher tech, though. So I rescind that statement. It’s on-par with the class of missile. I couldn’t cram in another ballistics and I just don’t think the drones are worth anything. I almost considered dumping the dps drones in favor of web just to free up a med slot. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/56 "2019-12-29T02:40:35Z")
I decided against the SW-drone though because I don’t think they’d catch anything you’re worried about at range. Like a garmur. So the drones are just dead weight at-range, but good for adding dps someone you got webbed. So you’re real strong under 10km, but much weaker at range. And I couldn’t justify fixing that. You might blow someone away at range, but ranged tacklers, doubtful… ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/57 "2019-12-29T02:43:04Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > If the rep is weaker, then you’re even worse off…?? Again not if your total HP is higher. Because it’s about reps over time…how long you live determines how long you _CAN_ rep, which determines how much HP you add in total. Your reps got you to 51k raw HP on the killboard, a decent feat. I think you could do a little better in the same fight with this fit. Probably closer to 59k HP raw. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/58 "2019-12-29T02:43:42Z")
Ok, so all I got from this. You just took my fit, made it worse. Swapped out one rep for a plate, and claimed it was better. Now I need to use an even more expensive implant. You claimed my fit was weak on DPS, but couldn’t improve it anymore yourself. You still haven’t given me a number that I should be aiming for, btw. And when questioned about the reps, you just brush it aside going, “Yeah, well you’re dead anyway”. As if that’s helpful. And most importantly. You still have not asked me what the purpose of the fit is, the number one most important question to ask before changing a fit. **If you don’t know what I plan to do with the fit, how can you say your changes make it better?** I hope everyone here learns a thing or two. Alistair doesn’t know what he’s talking about. When faced with an actual specific thing (like trying to improve my fit) the best he’ll do is swap out things to make it worse while spewing nonesense like: > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > if I dump something I can **get your pg in the right place** and > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > we can **maximize your missiles at the expense of drones** and save a rig…hold on. While fantastically failing to do either of this. In addition, he’ll come up with weird phrases that aren’t used by the majority of players like > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > To me a repair-wall means which only serves to confuse people as he comes up with his own terminology and his own definitions. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > some outlyers like catalyst does 600damage alpha… And he often gets specific terms like this wrong, mixing Alpha and DPS around without knowing that they both have specific definitions. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > at first glance it’s subpar, but you’re not using T2. So it’s probable that **you just didn’t train to use T2 missiles** Here’s another quote from him that showcase his lack of knowledge. He should have known that a pilot using T2 Cruise Missile Launchers would also have access to T2 Missiles because they use the same skill. But he doesn’t actually know that, and doesn’t want to know, which is why he’s so confident saying this (and being wrong). > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > I almost considered dumping the dps drones in favor of web just to free up a med slot. Comments like this are more indicative of lack of experience and knowledge. Most experienced PvP players will NEVER use a Stasis Webifiying Drone (SW series), because they are BAD. Making this suggestion of “drop DPS drones and use Web drones” \_for the purpose of a Mid slot is so incredibly bad. For as much PvP he claims to know, he seems to have forgotten that web drones suffer from Stacking penalties, meaning that they’ll never get to the stasis web effectiveness of a module in the mid slot at the loss of a little over 100 DPS after losing the drones. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Like a garmur. So the drones are just dead weight at-range, but good for adding dps someone you got webbed. So you’re real strong under 10km, but much weaker at range. And I couldn’t justify fixing that. Yet more statements that showcase the lack of experience. The reason why the original fit came with Warrior IIs is specifically for the purpose of chasing off tackle. He doesn’t realize that even unbonused Warrior IIs can be enough to chase off squishy Garmurs. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > You might **blow someone away at range** , but **ranged tacklers** , doubtful… And of course, don’t forget the contradictory statements. TL:DR: Alistair doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He thinks just saying things on a forum makes it true, but it doesn’t, because a lot of EVE Online requires actual experience. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/59 "2019-12-29T02:44:31Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Now I need to use an even more expensive implant. No you don’t, I’m looking right at it, the PG is less. So either you’re being dishonest or you’re trusting the in-game fitting tool, which should show you the same thing I see. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/60 "2019-12-29T02:45:20Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > And of course, don’t forget the contradictory statements. This isn’t a contradictory statement. You can make kills at range, but you’re not going to kill what matters. Garmurs and Lachs. I mean…what do you guys even fight out in Null? Anything? Or all those warp bubbles gone to your brain? ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170/61 "2019-12-29T02:47:39Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Making this suggestion of “drop DPS drones and use Web drones” \_for the purpose of a Mid slot is so incredibly bad. You have two webs at 10km, and you can offset the 55% of the second web sufficiently with 2 SW-900, preserving most of your drone DPS, and freeing a Medium slot. Not sure what you think is “bad” about that. You aren’t webbing anyone past 11km bub…that’s bad. Considering you move at a snail’s pace. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-nullsec-mining-problems/208170.md?page=4)