# A solution to the Maleatu Shakor problem (and other leadership woes) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2019, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049 "2019-10-17T05:28:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/61 "2019-10-17T17:00:07Z")
It’s probably the combination of the source and intensity of her convictions. Sometimes what’s straightforward is very strong. Sometimes feeling is too intense to be called sentiment. My predecessor saw herself as a ghost, a vengeful spirit. (It’s kind of funny-- one of her friends called me my predecessor’s ghost. Yaaaay, I get to be a ghost recursively.) Ms. Kim seems to look at herself in kind of a similar way. I might be hunting for excuses; it might be that the sentiment’s just that strong, but even if it’s not, viewing one’s self as an echo of that kind, or remnant of someone who’s died, can make that dead person’s wishes and resentments seem … very important. And while a living person is bound by various rules not to do certain stuff, an angry ghost has no such restrictions. Even if that’s not quite how she thinks of herself, I think it works as an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/62 "2019-10-17T17:02:47Z")
Hmm, ya I guess that’s the closest analogy that makes sense. Can’t think of anything better. ---
**Author:** ![Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ange_des_larmes/32/304752_2.png) [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ange_des_Larmes)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/63 "2019-10-17T17:22:51Z")
I know nothing of Matar politics and definitely don’t have people on the inside to keep me informed so I was due to keep out of this. However, I have an interesting query that I would appreciate someone clarifying. If Shakor is so bad for the Republic, why is every metric I have seen showing me that the Republic is seeing unpreceedented growth? A few months back I’m sure I read an article that said that many Gallente are moving to the Republic because they see great opportunities for business due to this economic boom. I believe I also read that Minmatar emigration to the Federation was slowing. I may be mistaken or misremenbering - as I said before, I really couldn’t care less about the Minmatar centeal political structure - but it sounds like Shakor has been good for the average Matari citizen… just not that good for capsuleers. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/64 "2019-10-17T17:29:04Z")
Leaders and economic developments are commonly associated with each other but it’s largely a myth. The economy is its own animal, and booms and busts regardless of who is in power. Shakor’s gotten lucky with the economy, and Midular was unlucky, but I’m not sure how much either of them actually contributed to the state of it. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/65 "2019-10-17T17:47:39Z")
It is unwise to divorce an economy from the political system in which it operates. The growth that the Republics Economy could be directly linked with the government restructure and the policies that the Tribal Council, but more importantly, each individual Tribe, has put into place. It is also important to remind everyone that the Sanmatar’s role is not to _govern_. It is largely a ceremonial role, acting as a representative to the wider cluster. The person that fills the office is chosen by the Tribal Council, by each Tribes _Chief_, and they have seen fit to reselect Sanmatar Shakor for the past 10 years. That means that each of our _Chiefs_ have given their approval of the Sanmatar for the past 10 years. If you have a problem with the Sanmatar, bring it up to your Chief. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/66 "2019-10-17T17:52:21Z")
I see a grain of truth in this. Tribal unity (which I noted has been on the rise) has likely contributed to increased co-operation in business and R&D alike. If I were someone who would do snide insinuations, part of the economical upturn also might have to do something with Gallentean aid money going where it’s supposed to now instead of being diverted to building a secret Titan-supercapital-jumpfreighter fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/67 "2019-10-17T18:05:11Z")
I would argue that an even greater impact would be the growth of the labor pool, filled with an educated and _Skilled_ workforce as they return from the Federation or have been liberated from the Amarr, and the growth of private capital. People are moving back from the Federation should not be overlooked. It is because they have _Hope_. Hope that the Republic is finally throwing off the shackles of the past and our people are entering a new age of prosperity. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/68 "2019-10-17T18:08:43Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Hope that the Republic is finally throwing off the shackles of the past …By affixing shackles of ancient past? Mhm. ---
**Author:** ![Nomistrav](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomistrav/32/278296_2.png) [@Nomistrav](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nomistrav)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/69 "2019-10-17T18:20:41Z")
We can’t ignore Midular’s government grants program that brought many Minmatar back from the Federation through economic incentive. It wasn’t just hope; many were driven by profit or financial stability as well. Due in no small part to the work of capsuleers who needed a sizable industrial base to fuel their efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/70 "2019-10-17T18:29:42Z")
No, that should not be ignored either. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/71 "2019-10-17T18:36:07Z")
> [@Nomistrav](#): > > Assuming that Shakor were no longer Sanmatar (by assassination or otherwise), what would a new Sanmatar do differently that would satisfy the grievances against Maleatu? What can be accomplished within the power of capsuleers that Sanmatar Shakor cannot or perhaps will not perform with the power of a unified Republic? Sometimes it is a simple matter of principle that a leader who came to power by illegitimate means should be removed, regardless of the purported success of that leader. However, in my view it is of no benefit to continue the cycle of political killings to do so. If Shakor is to be replaced, it should not be through the same illegitimate means by which he ascended himself. What is telling to me about this discussion is what while many have balked at the suggestion that Shakor should be assassinated the same way he assassinated others, nobody seems to want to claim that he wouldn’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/72 "2019-10-17T18:45:05Z")
Absolute growth is also not telling of the whole truth. Some industries [have also suffered](https://fiction.eveonline.com/new-eden/lore/pator). It is questionable to me if the homeworld is stronger when industry suffers when tribal co-operation collapses, and it is replaced by revenue from tourism and governance. Tourists don’t win wars. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/73 "2019-10-17T19:09:18Z")
> [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > nobody seems to want to claim that he wouldn’t deserve it. I had thought that our arugments had made that point clear. If not, then let me spell it out for you. The Sanmatar decidly does _not_ deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/74 "2019-10-17T19:59:33Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > come back to the Home Mother. Actually, I spend about 1/4 of my time on Matar. How about you? And by the way, I’ve been calling for decentralizing power since practically my first day on the IGS. Go look if you think I’m wrong. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > What you are asking for is a weakening of our people And what’s your great idea? You know what–never mind. Shakor’s got his hand so far up your ass that I wouldn’t be able to tell if it was you or him speaking. Instead, I’ll ask someone with a less partial background: > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > The suggestion that we break down the Republic into seven tribes is _suicide_ , 1. How would it be a suicide? Instead of having to deal with so many thick layers of government as we do now, we would each answer only to our clans and tribes (and Circles, if applicable). Our tribal chiefs would be empowered to act not in the best interest of _seven entire tribes_–that, to me, is the suicide, and it’s in progress–but simply to their own, the culture that they know best. No more Brutors trying to lay their weight into the personal entertainment of a Sebiestor and a Vherokior. No more Thukkers being able to hide secret city-ships. And civil war? One would expect that the seven tribes would ally with each other against the Amarr or any other common threat. If we’re unable to do that, then we’ve failed at the one thing that truly defines a modern Minmatar. 1. What would your solution be? To install a new head of government? Here’s the thing about heads of government: They’re just the _head_. Whether you believe that the Elders are secretly manipulating things behind the scenes, or you think that our councils and bureaus are run by common men, you must agree on one premise: that the government is not just one person. (And it _should not be_ just one person.) There are lingering loyalties, old pacts and alliances, old trade agreements, CONCORD regulations and recognitions of borders and so much pomp and fat. _Why_ do any of you think Shakor has turned out to be so similar to Midular? It’s because he got into office (legitimately or not) and expected to be able to sweep through and do all the things that Midular couldn’t–except, when he actually sat down at his fancy new desk, he realized what any public policy student is taught on day one. Things are set up in certain ways by people in government whom we never see, for reasons upon reasons upon reasons. And even Shakor’s Purges couldn’t wipe the slate clean. His hands are tied by the same binds Midular could not overcome. Midular faced hurdles that she couldn’t overcome. Eventually, she died because of them. Shakor wanted to be a hero. But he faced the same hurdles, and no amount of power-grabbing will let him overcome them, either. You can kill Shakor, oust Shakor, retire Shakor, marry Shakor to Catiz and send him to the Empire to give her babies. Whatever. But whoever you replace him with will face the same hurdles. Castle king side, and we remain just where we have been for years. Shakor is only the most visible sign of the rot. If you want true change, you have to remove all of the rot and cure its source. Maybe you disagree with a full decentralization of power. But that aside, our government still needs to be dissolved and rebuilt. We got it wrong the first time. That’s fine. We’ll start again. If we don’t, then we doom ourselves to the same repetitive cycles, to have this debate with each other to the ends of our capsuleer lives, with nothing coming of it. We’ll have another Long Night, don’t doubt it. But this time it’ll be of our own making. ---
**Author:** ![Vollhov\_Jr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vollhov_jr/32/510418_2.png) [@Vollhov\_Jr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vollhov_Jr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/75 "2019-10-17T22:44:20Z")
It is high time. Do not forget about Jacus Roden, he must also be killed. Karin Midular = R.I.P Due to the fact that the two leaders cannot be in the Minmatars. Tibus Heth = R.I.P Due to Capsuleers. Jamyl Sarum = R.I.P Due to Capsuleers. ---
**Author:** ![Sah\_Phyre](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sah_phyre/32/378085_2.png) [@Sah\_Phyre](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sah_Phyre)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/76 "2019-10-18T00:43:54Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > How would it be a suicide? Instead of having to deal with so many thick layers of government as we do now, we would each answer only to our clans and tribes (and Circles, if applicable). Our tribal chiefs would be empowered to act not in the best interest of _seven entire tribes_ –that, to me, is the suicide, and it’s in progress–but simply to their own, the culture that they know best. Strictly speaking, this doesn’t sound too different from how the Caldari run their megacorps. The State is technically a confederacy held together only by a common legal framework and a military (and even then they have their own private armies), yet it’s still a society united by common values. They might snark at each other about how Ishukone are traitors, KK is soulless, NOH is amoral and CBD is physically incapable of comprehending the concept of fun (that last one might actually be true though), but when the push comes to shove, you don’t deal with “the Megas”, you deal with the State. I have the impression that there’s enough of the same patriotic sentiment in the Republic to keep it together in times of peril without stepping on each other’s toes rest of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/77 "2019-10-18T04:09:37Z")
> [@Vollhov\_Jr](#): > > Do not forget about Jacus Roden, he must also be killed. Funny thing about the Federation, we have these silly “elections” every five years. We’ve got one coming up in just a few months, actually. As you can see from this thread, killing people as your only means of political reform causes all kinds of issues. Anyway, we’ll manage to get someone to replace Roden without all the mess of killing him. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/78 "2019-10-18T04:54:17Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > How would it be a suicide? Because our society is _not_ neatly divided into tribes, even if growing up in Sundsele makes you (and made me, before I was taught better) think so, even if government propaganda wants you to think so. We are not seven sisters living in houses side by side, we are seven sisters living _together_. Most of our big trade and industry efforts are multitribal. There are stations in Sebiestor space owned by Thukker where Brutor rent quarters where a Krusual circle owns a factory where a Vherokior freedom fighter family gets their tools of trade from - and that’s still a simple picture. As already explained above, even if we might look busier and fancier with all this tribal trad crafts & touristy stuff going on, in many places things like for example mining industry has actually _ground to halt_ without inter-tribal law to govern it. That we’ve made more jobs won’t help the defense efforts if those jobs are administrators and lawyers. Sorting all of this into seven independent nations that can produce the same power that the joint nation of _even the four_ did would be possible. It would, however, be a process that would take decades, and stop certain vital, co-operative systems from working properly. There _would_ be wars over who gets to control what. And while we were at it, we’d be Reclaimed. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/79 "2019-10-18T05:13:02Z")
Just look at the recent archaeological ownership debate. The clans are incredibly intertwined at every level, from social, to legal, to economic. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049/80 "2019-10-18T06:43:49Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > Of course, he should step down after this emergency is over. Legally, that’s not necessarily assured. The Sanmatar is forced out after the resolution of a crisis that drives him to invoke emergency powers. However, the _Council_ invoked them in this case… he didn’t. That leaves him a loophole large enough to drive a fleet of titans through. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Sanmatar normally is a figurehead position anyway Well, since we’ve had all of _one_… it’s hard to say what it ‘normally’ is, other than… Shakor. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Clan is family too, but it’s an extended family. Like _really_ extended. As with so much else, this varies from Clan to Clan. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > If I were an conspiracy theorist, I might say that since Shakor couldn’t beat Midular in a democratic vote, he made sure he’d win by removing all other candidates, including the _Ray_ . Of course her he couldn’t kill, people would not forgive murdering the Ray of Matar, no matter how much mud she was dragged through at the time. Well, considering she dissolved Parliament, and called for Shakor to return, then didn’t run against him… I dunno how he was supposed to lose to her. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-solution-to-the-maleatu-shakor-problem-and-other-leadership-woes/196049.md?page=5)