# A story of customer oriented design gone wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2019, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257 "2019-06-28T06:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/21 "2019-06-28T07:31:49Z")
I mean what I say. So your quote is an assumption, its not what I said, and its what youve decided it means. Again, where did I pass judgement on a playstyle? ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/22 "2019-06-28T07:34:04Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > I mean what I say. > > So your quote is an assumption, its not what I said, and its what ypuve decided it means. > > Again, where did I pass judgement on a playstyle? AHH stop it… I explained what would happen if your nightmare of the game would become reality and you insist on your dream,you further said that “silence is better than my whining” after i said the game would be closed so it was totally clear what you meant… Don’t row back in your boat now… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/23 "2019-06-28T07:35:42Z")
Im not. You cant actually find where I said what my own playstyle was because I didnt tell you. Everything you wrote, you pretty much made up based on your own biased opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/24 "2019-06-28T07:36:18Z")
If you say so…the posts say otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/25 "2019-06-28T07:36:30Z")
Then quote them. Your refusal to understand my opinion is tbh irrelevent in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/26 "2019-06-28T09:06:19Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > CCP chose to keep quality customers versus keeping a quantity of customers. They lost in the bargain. I would even contest this. They don’t keep quality customers because most of the null sec population is anything but quality. It’s mere mindless alt quantity. The real quantities were in high sec with lots of actual players playing missions, mining, production, markets. And missions in particular were also quality because missions allowed for a lot of income but never in an unbalanced way such as super capital ratting in null sec. While you can still earn a lot of ISK with missions, missions were never in a position to break the EVE economy. Anom ratting, on the other hand, broke the economy with just 1 not fully thought through change to 2 tools to run them. Will say: CCP chose bad quality, bad quantity over good quality, good quantity users. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/27 "2019-06-28T09:16:37Z")
I think they broke it previously with the Tech imbalance and the removal of the -25% ROF penalty on Destroyers to name just two events that had a major distortional impact on the game as a whole. * * * I happen to like these invasions and more aggressive NPC’s and it makes the game more alive, but the lack of attention to the mass of solo casuals was a major error on the part of CCP. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/28 "2019-06-28T10:06:17Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > EVE Online just went in a similar direction when CCP decided to focus on the very satisfied hardcore customers and give up on solo casuals. > > Maybe stuff like highsec and mission agents don’t bring headlines nor make people travel to Iceland just to say hello, but the sheer numbers of people who were paying CCP for that stuff provided all the monetization CCP is lacking now when population has dwindled (and keeps dwindling). I strongly agree with the example concept that “perhaps CCP has the data, but they are drawing the wrong conclusions from it”. It is my own belief that actually, CCP doesn’t even have the proper types of decision making in place to even _know what sort of data they should be trying to extract_ from their records and how to use that to make game design decisions. I don’t feel we, on the customer end, have enough _data_ to conclusively say who CCP should be developing for/how they should be developing. Even though I personally have very strong opinions on what directions CCP should be taking EVE, those are based on long-term trends and observation of many MMO/gaming industry trends, not on ‘evidence’ that I can point to regarding EVE (except for a few things, like the history of PCU etc). > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > CCP chose to keep quality customers versus keeping a quantity of customers. They lost in the bargain. Again, no ‘evidence’, but I feel that the direction CCP has taken EVE, especially over the last 4 years, indicates that they have decided to focus on certain client factions that bring them in the most steady income. My guess is that their metrics went something like “players in really big corps and alliances tend to pay us more money, start more accounts, and stay around longer than players who aren’t in really big corps/alliance. Thus, clearly, if we steer the game towards needing to be in a big corp/alliance, then we will make more money!” Putting the cart before the horse, and drawing the wrong conclusions from their own data, seems to be a CCP specialty, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/29 "2019-06-28T10:14:58Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > Your PVP paradise will be dead soon and your whish is the reason why… OMG ! “EVE IS DYING !!!” It’s not as if no-one has ever claimed that before… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/30 "2019-06-28T10:19:56Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > and the removal of the -25% ROF penalty on Destroyers Oh look, yet another anti-ganker/CODE whining…what a shocker… > [@Dracvlad](#): > > NPC’s and it makes the game more alive The irony of programming, not people, making things more alive for you, is shockingly shocking. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/31 "2019-06-28T10:33:21Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > Oh look, yet another anti-ganker/CODE whining…what a shocker… Oh look, what a shocker, your actual biases exposed… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/32 "2019-06-28T10:35:27Z")
Oh sorry, are you anti-ganker too? So hard to tell you lazy carebears apart. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/33 "2019-06-28T10:38:26Z")
And this is why you aren’t a credible commenter on any F&I threads or anything to do with game balance. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/35 "2019-06-28T12:45:03Z")
The problem is that your analysis sits quite well with me apart from the simple fact that by the time that they were actually looking at the data a majority of the casual solo players had already left the game due to the impact of the -25% ROF being removed from destroyers and the imbalance it caused to casual solo hisec miners. I tried to warn them on the forums, but they just did not listen, it took two and a half years before they reacted and changed the mining ships to what they are now. Prior to that all mining ships had the tank of a wet paper bag. It was catastrophic, if only they had got that balance right in terms of tank eve would be going strong at this point. What happened is that all those casual hisec miners instead of making slow steady progress suddenly found themselves having catastrophic losses in which their activity could not sustain, as a result they gave up. You will often hear gankers start going on about how few frieghters get ganked, but what they don’t get is that the impact of the imbalance there has a very chilling effect on the casual solo players who have no counter. It is dock up and log if your route has a bumper on the gate. Otherwise you end up being bumped for potentially hours and will likely be ganked or scam duel ganked in your desperation to get out. It turns even basic play into a lottery. I keep pushing for something to be done about this or some sort of counter for the casual solo hauler. This type of stupidity has to change. PS @Runa_Yamaguchi, I have you blocked. You are wasting time and emotional capital in replying to me. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/36 "2019-06-28T12:49:40Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > the impact of the -25% ROF being removed from destroyers and the imbalance it caused to casual solo hisec miners More carebear whinging… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/37 "2019-06-28T12:51:27Z")
Your understanding of the signifigance of this is clouded by emotion and opinion. Dracvlad is right. There I said it. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/38 "2019-06-28T12:52:50Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > PS @Runa_Yamaguchi, I have you blocked. You are wasting time and emotional capital in replying to me. You are a coward in space and in the forums…no surprise there… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/39 "2019-06-28T12:53:57Z")
The problem with his whining is that he has zero data to back all his many claimed up with…or he says he does but that it’s in his other pants… ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/40 "2019-06-28T12:55:12Z")
It would have been much better if CCP had realised quickly and adjusted it, there is nothing wrong with ganking as such, but you have to make sure that the prey side of the equation can handle it. They took their eye off the ball and the prey ended up being depleted to such a degree that there were knock on impacts. It is such a shame. As for Runa it is amusing that he did a war dec thread complaining about having to risk a structure to do an offensive war dec. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/41 "2019-06-28T12:55:37Z")
Yes but I was there when they tanked the hulks because they buffed destroyers. Edit: End result whatever way you look at it was a change was made, another change was made due to a blinkered out look on the effect of the first change and it lost pilots. If they had tanked barges and THEN buff destroyers would your opinion be different? In the long term the outcome would probably be the same. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257.md?page=3)