# A story of customer oriented design gone wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2019, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257 "2019-06-28T06:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/42 "2019-06-28T12:58:14Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > As for Runa it is amusing that he did a war dec thread complaining about having to risk a structure to do an offensive war dec. More lies…The thread was against the 5 corps create 50% of the wardec changes… > [@WarDec System Change Failure](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wardec-system-change-failure/165093): > > Dear CCP, While the changes to the WarDec system in general are good, the fee changes were poorly thought out and it is REALLY showing. “50 percent of all wars in EVE Online are started by just 5 groups” There has been apx 250 wars declared this month and just one corp is responsible for about 70% of them. Another corp takes 26%. I’m guessing this was not what you intended. You’ve doubled the price for “the little guys” and made it cheaper for huge sharks. WTF! My simple suggestion is this… Once again, Drac needs to lie… EDIT I guess Mr.Run-and-hide means this thread actually… > [@Station Basher Looking for HS Alliance](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/station-basher-looking-for-hs-alliance/162665): > > Hi there, With the new changes to the WarDec system, CCP is trying yet again to protect the carebares in HS. This means people like me now need to either own an Upwell themselves OR be part of an alliance that owns one. That’s where you (I hope) come in. I’m looking for an active corp or alliance that has a station(s) in HS to ally with. I only hit abandoned station so there is little to no risk of the targets stations corp retaliating. I do my homework and with close to 60 stations destroyed… I guess he remembered it because once again, I railed against carebears…he’s sensitive like that… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/43 "2019-06-28T13:01:23Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > In the long term the outcome would probably be the same. THERE you nailed it. The only difference here is I’m not whining about a buff/nerf but pointing at the chronic complainer to anything that threatens his HS ISK ernings… TBH I don’t care about the buff/nerf debates as ANYONE will tell you that gankers will just use more or less ships…it doesn’t matter as you put it. The only thing that changes is the whiners whine louder, hence Mr.Blockypants… ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/44 "2019-06-28T16:45:59Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > CCP chose to keep quality customers versus keeping a quantity of customers. They lost in the bargain. Probably one of the most naïve things I have read recently. As if you can just turn a game like EVE into a Care Bear Merry Go Round overnight. You can’t, EVE will never compete with those games. All this would accomplish is the alienating of existing customers and all those bears would still consider EVE a spreadsheet game. UO tried this with Trammel, and they are now gone. TSW allowed the developers to convince them the MMO would be better as a shooter, gone. Changing a game into a different game for a different audience is a _ **fools errand** _. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/45 "2019-06-28T19:31:39Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > No because WHAT they did is exactly the kind of high end PVE nobody cares about… Shut up Balos. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/46 "2019-06-28T19:34:46Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Please dont quote me as saying things I didnt. That’s Balos for you. He is back again with another puppet account. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 7:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/47 "2019-06-29T07:28:17Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > > > CCP chose to keep quality customers versus keeping a quantity of customers. They lost in the bargain. > > Probably one of the most naïve things I have read recently. > > As if you can just turn a game like EVE into a Care Bear Merry Go Round overnight. You can’t, EVE will never compete with those games. > > All this would accomplish is the alienating of existing customers and all those bears would still consider EVE a spreadsheet game. > > UO tried this with Trammel, and they are now gone. > TSW allowed the developers to convince them the MMO would be better as a shooter, gone. > > Changing a game into a different game for a different audience is a _ **fools errand** _. First, UO is alive and 21… yet not because of PvP Second, CCP already had that people onboard. Then they decided to cut off any development that could keep those people interested with the game. At every turn taken since Incarnageddon, CCP had to choose whether to appeal to a wider or narrower demographic, and chose the narrower one since they were active, and happy, and vocal, and cool. Instead of developing underdeveloped aspects of the game, CCP essentially led a way that turned to be POSes again + Apochrypha again (abysmal sites and Triglavian are what wormholes and T3 were supposed to be until players outsmarted developers) + Incursion again (literally). I don’t know what could have happened if CCP had spent resources on people like me, but I know for sure that we were a lot of people and in a EVE with us onboard, F2P, selling SP and the other increasingly desperate attemtps to monetize what’s left of EVE wouldn’t have been necessary. And all it took was adding new missions, adding cosmethic structures and figuring a way to make NPC interaction interesting and valuable for solo highseccers, amounting to maybe 25% of the effort wasted with the Rubicon Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 10:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/48 "2019-06-29T10:23:08Z")
On the contrary, what ccp did was not only ignore satisfied customers, they’ve spent 7 years sacrificing core philophies whilst looking for ways to make casuals loyal, but you can’t, they are _casual_. To use your anology, they stopped providing the training program that worked and made it so only the advanved training program was available. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/49 "2019-06-29T11:04:28Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > On the contrary, what ccp did was not only ignore satisfied customers, they’ve spent 7 years sacrificing core philophies whilst looking for ways to make casuals loyal, but you can’t, they are _casual_ . > > To use your anology, they stopped providing the training program that worked and made it so only the advanved training program was available. I semi-sorta-agree with what Daichi is saying here (mark it on your calendar!), even though I know he has a different take on it than I do. I do believe that CCP has stopped offering the best EVE experience and has consistently been moving towards an EVE experience that _CCP and EVE is not good at_. PvE is fine in a game, lots of games are built on it and are successful. PvE can be a useful resource even in EVE, if properly done. However PvE cannot be the _direction_ of EVE because the engine/mechanics of the game simply _do not support_ an engaging PvE environment. What CCP has been lacking is any real understanding of why players play EVE, and how to both support the actual interesting gameplay of EVE while simultaneously introducing a steady stream of new players into EVE and giving them a reasonable progression path to achieve the interesting portions of the game. That balance is quite tricky btw, so I don’t fault CCP for not achieving it. The problem is that the ‘background environment’ of EVE, in a sense, is of an exploitative, mercenary, the strong devour the weak, the weak shall perish type setting. _And every new player is weak._ EVE did better when we were all various degrees of ‘weak and less weak and not so weak’. When the playing field was not ridiculously tilted in favor of those who had a 10 year head start. I don’t fault CCP for not getting the balance right. I do fault them for the fact that they are for the most part, not even trying. Or doing a sloppy, misdirected, poorly designed effort when they do try. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/50 "2019-06-29T11:39:08Z")
The casual hisec mining players I came across in 2009 and 2010 were really loyal to Eve. What’s more they were simple easy to please customers because all they wanted to do was chew rocks and make slow steady progress. Maybe spending a couple of hours a day just chilling. So in the context of what Daichi said a game like this take a long time to play, if you want to be hard to kill you apply patience, most people are casual in terms of this so they take risks that makes them easy prey. The context is that the hisec miners I talked about were not casual about Eve, but their play style was. Just to make it clear what I mean by casual solo players. ---
**Author:** ![Wanderinlost](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wanderinlost/32/144330_2.png) [@Wanderinlost](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wanderinlost)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/51 "2019-06-29T16:44:57Z")
I had been a casual solo for years, mostly living in high sec but spending more in low. I had arrived at the point where I wanted to seriously commit to a game for very long term, get into all the aspects and EvE was perfect in most ways for its breadth of content, setting, story and player oriented gameplay. I had one problem though, my main’s name I could not stand becasue it conjured bad memories whenever I had to look at it. I was fully aware of the obstinate stance the community had on name changes and that it was not a service offered, however I pretty much begged via ticket for them to grant me a change anyways if only to keep me as a customer. No joy. So after that I was fed up and refused to reroll a 50m SP avatar to just change my name. Even a few month later they introduced SP injectors and a name change was possible after a fashion, although at a cost of $500+ USD. I could have afforded it, but I was not about to waste that on something any other game offers for $10-$20 and I had already moved on. I did find a game though, in BDO, which I have been happily spending a good $100-$200 every month and will continue to do so until the game shuts or I die IRL. I suppose it is a bit poetic that PA ends up buying CPP because it is simply a better run game with a company not weighed down by its own moronic community and actually able to achieve great commercial success. Being Koreans they can ignore most the idiot demands players make on them and just focus on making a good game. I do like Eve as a game though, it is fantastic setting, and perhaps I will come back and sub for a few months some day, but that is a few months of subscription versus the multiple tens of thousands I would have been spending over time had this games community not been working against its own interests. There is nothing they could ever do to regain me as a primary customer though, that ship has sailed. o7 ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/52 "2019-06-29T16:49:16Z")
> [@Wanderinlost](#): > > they can ignore most the idiot demands players make on them Like players that want to change their name? ---
**Author:** ![Glathull](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glathull/32/234710_2.png) [@Glathull](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glathull)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/53 "2019-06-29T18:06:58Z")
“Hardcore solo casual” I love that description so much. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/54 "2019-06-29T20:04:32Z")
I am also a casual hardcore miner solo casual pvp’er casual… ---
**Author:** ![Glathull](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glathull/32/234710_2.png) [@Glathull](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glathull)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/55 "2019-06-29T20:10:52Z")
I’m an intensely laid-back person in general. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/56 "2019-06-30T13:54:11Z")
> [@Wanderinlost](#): > > I was fully aware of the obstinate stance the community had on name changes and that it was not a service offered, If you’re going to call a community ‘moronic’ and ‘working against its own interests’, you should probably consider the facts. - CCP makes the rules here, not the community. - CCP implemented the decision on name changes long before ‘the community’ voiced any opinions on it. - Many members of ‘the community’ have asked for name change functions/tokens/purchases. The fact that CCP sides with the ‘no changes, you are stuck with your choices in EVE’ is **on CCP** , not the players. - The community in BDO is the same as the community in EVE… made up of tens of thousands of people of all types. - You could probably have instituted a character trade through the character bazaar with someone else for a similar character, either by accepting some fewer SP or tossing some bling into the deal. This is a perfectly valid option you apparently didn’t explore. - CCP doesn’t care if they have you as a primary customer, since they are owned by PA and PA already has your gaming dollars. Next time you encounter a game that suits you as well as you say EVE does, try exploring your options a little more thoroughly and try a little less of being incorrect, pointing fingers in the wrong direction, and being foolishly insulting about it to boot. If I behaved like that on a regular basis, I guess I’d be ashamed of my name too. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-story-of-customer-oriented-design-gone-wrong/170257/57 "2019-09-28T13:54:25Z")
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