# Actual Numbers from Marketing (Long Post) **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** industrial, feedback\ **Created:** [March 13, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654 "2020-03-13T22:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joia\_Crenca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/joia_crenca/32/291897_2.png) [@Joia\_Crenca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Joia_Crenca)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/24 "2020-03-14T01:55:46Z")
One thing that doesn’t seem to get mentioned is the use of posting 1 item at a time, at slightly lower than market value, in order to drive out smaller competitors. If I’ve got deep pockets, I can simply run a smaller producer/trader into continual losses with very little problems on my end. If I’m a bot user AND have those deep pockets, you’ve got no real chance of winning the frustration war against me. Upping the adjustment timer from 5 minutes to something like 30 minutes or even 2 hours would have been a better way of leveling the playing field. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlet\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scarlet_starfire/32/244125_2.png) [@Scarlet\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scarlet_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/25 "2020-03-14T02:06:17Z")
Nobody will want to change their orders every 30 minutes or 2 hours, it would mean that your not really managing your orders. Might as well forget about being a trader and just be a casual. As for bots never came across one that I could say was a bot even with the 0.01 isk trade wars. So I don’t know where all these bots people keep on about are supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/26 "2020-03-14T03:35:02Z")
First of all, I’m not trying to go off on you. There have been numerous people in multiple threads complaining about the changes, and I kind of dumped a lot of my opinions on the matter into this one post. Okay, market bots do exist. [They have been banned](https://twitter.com/ccp_peligro/status/1001461893939286021?lang=en), and you can find them for sale if you do a google search. That being said, it is quite possible that the playerbase assumed market botting was worse than it actually was. For example, people have messaged me to make sure that I’m not a bot. So the truth of the matter is probably in between the two extremes. There were a non-insignificant amount of market bots, but probably not as many as players seemed to believe. Now, even though the problem was likely not as bad as it was perceived to be, that doesn’t mean that CCP shouldn’t have taken steps to address botting. Besides making current market bots worthless, and providing very little incentive to use market bots going forward, it will also go a long way towards making people feel like they are on a level playing field. In fact, it could be argued that players perceptions of bots and cheaters is actually more important to player retention than the actual prevalence of botters and cheaters. No one wants to play against cheaters, and if people believe that they are a big enough problem, they’ll quit. (on a side note, I know I’ve seen a player survey somewhere saying that botting was one of players’ biggest concerns, but I seem unable to find a source). Of course, this is not the only way they could have dealt with the problem; nor is it necessarily the best way. However, I’m willing to bet that it will not only have a significant effect on the number of market bots, but also the perception of market bots. Now, for everyone who hates this change -I feel you. I liked how the old system game me an advantage over those with less knowledge and determination. However, I strongly assert that this will not destroy the economy or kill trading or industry. Of course, I have no doubt that it will have an effect on the economy, but I highly doubt that it will be calamitous. Moreover, I’d bet my anal virginity that there are plenty of players out there right now trying to figure out how to use these mechanics to their advantage. Perhaps you, and anyone else reading this, should consider trying to do the same. Finally, CCP said that they will closely monitor the situation. So, it is possible that they might make some adjustments moving forward. And, I’d imagine that they’d be far more receptive to listening to the constructive feedback of people who have extensively played with the new mechanics, than they are to listen to the people who hadn’t. You can say that they should listen to your feedback regardless, but the simple fact of the matter is that thousands of players are constantly vying for their attention. So, you can either argue with me over why CCP should listen to your opinion, or can increase your chances of being heard by making a strong case that you are worth listening to. Give the new mechanics a shot. Try to figure out how to use them to your advantage. Figure out what are their strengths and weaknesses. And then, provide constructive criticism based upon actual knowledge and experience with the mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Nicen\_Jehr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicen_jehr/32/388048_2.png) [@Nicen\_Jehr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicen_Jehr)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 3:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/27 "2020-03-14T03:37:08Z")
> [@Yarisa\_Rose](#): > > The going rate for a Hawk in Amarr currently is 46,490,000. > … > Less than 5 minutes after being posted there were 2 orders undercutting The going rate is the best price you can ask where no competitors are willing to undercut you… ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/28 "2020-03-14T07:10:47Z")
> [@Yarisa\_Rose](#): > > Less than 5 minutes after being posted there were 2 orders undercutting. While not linear trend my order is already obsolete, I will not sell this Hawk any time soon. More orders will be placed in front of it. If I wish to edit my Hawk listing twice I have lost 10% of my profit, if I must edit it four times that is 20%. Works as intended. Learn to EvE. ---
**Author:** ![Thorian\_Baalnorn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/thorian_baalnorn/32/187492_2.png) [@Thorian\_Baalnorn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Thorian_Baalnorn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/29 "2020-03-14T08:18:27Z")
> [@Joia\_Crenca](#): > > One thing that doesn’t seem to get mentioned is the use of posting 1 item at a time, at slightly lower than market value, in order to drive out smaller competitors. If I’ve got deep pockets, I can simply run a smaller producer/trader into continual losses with very little problems on my end. This is a really good point. Today i bought item X because i saw a demand for it somewhere else. I could sell it for twice the price and move 10-20 items an hour. When i was buying those big lots, i was buying from a single order. The thought crossed my mind about how easy it would be to shut a large amount of traders down by buying stock and then constantly relisting 1 item lower than their item. With a couple of alts and minimal investment i could really tank the market on a many items. I dabble in industry so i could even produce the stuff myself and be out only resources which i have most of laying around. My primary income is from other means, so it doesnt matter if i make money on trading or not if i really wanted to sink the market. This is the kind of thing that CCP has opened the market up to and its already terrible compared to what it was. We dont need them making it worse. CCP may have made penny wars worse with this move because now its even easier to drive your competition out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/30 "2020-03-14T08:42:42Z")
> [@Thorian\_Baalnorn](#): > > This is the kind of thing that CCP has opened the market up to and its already terrible compared to what it was. Uh, it was already possible to do exactly what you are talking about. In fact it was easier because you could shove your entire stack on the market at just under their prices and keep shoving it to just under their prices even if they did relist. Your opponent can just hold their price point though and any time someone wants a larger order they will make some sales. Unless of course you intend on using a bot to constantly relist. Because there will only be 1/a small stack in the way. So the new situation is better for them, not worse. ---
**Author:** ![Sheldon\_d\_Albion](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sheldon_d_albion/32/496108_2.png) [@Sheldon\_d\_Albion](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sheldon_d_Albion)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/31 "2020-03-14T09:22:33Z")
There are nothing you can do as long as the market does not take these changes into account. You’ll have to wait the consolidation of the new pricing In your Hawk example, you were being often undercut , you should have reacted wisier. - no additional orders because of the undercuting One order blocked is enough , this market will be like a pile of “dead” orders - let your competition dies , the same way you feel at the moment these hawk might have been manufactured with mineral/Pi bought through the old trade system so cheapier than yours using the new strade system: it will take times before the “cleaning” of the market others traders who will experiment your issue, could probably stop trading the hawk , giving you some leeway - the market is not stabilized yet and may have some strange behaviours in the next couple of month moreover CCP is not finished with the traders yet 😃 Conclusion : this patch will disrupt your trade for at least a long time don’t product in advance because that could be immobilized isk and take advantage of any opportunities ( product being “à la mode” with a small time frame windows ) ---
**Author:** ![Thorian\_Baalnorn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/thorian_baalnorn/32/187492_2.png) [@Thorian\_Baalnorn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Thorian_Baalnorn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/35 "2020-03-14T12:12:50Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Uh, it was already possible to do exactly what you are talking about. In fact it was easier because you could shove your entire stack on the market at just under their prices and keep shoving it to just under their prices even if they did relist. > > Your opponent can just hold their price point though and any time someone wants a larger order they will make some sales. Unless of course you intend on using a bot to constantly relist. > Because there will only be 1/a small stack in the way. > So the new situation is better for them, not worse. You have the old way of thinking with penny wars. With the new changes, it doesnt take near as much effort. Lets say you produce T2 1MN ABs and put 200 up for sale at 2 mil each. You buy all your supplies and your total cost is 1,700,000 per unit leaving you with a potential profit of 60 million. Under the old method you could penny war with someone for quite some time. They would have to drop their price significantly and be willing to sell a large quantity at that price to starve you out of the market. But that is not the case under the new system. I have a stock of 50 of the same items. I produce my own materials but that is not relevant at this point i could do it as easily if i didnt. So here we go: 1. You list your items for 2 million, the lowest on the market. 2. 2 items sell so you have 198. 3. I list 3 items at 1,900,000. Im going to let other people do some of the work for me. 4. I sell one item. 5. Someone else list one item for 1,899,000 6. Someone else puts up 4 more for 1,898,000 7. 2 items sell. 5 items need to be bought before yours will sell. 8)A personal dabbling in industry lists 12 for sell. He mines his own ore and he doesnt value his time. He also thinks undercutting someone by a lot is going to mean it sells faster. He list his for 1,850,000. 8. You do not change your price because we already cut your profit in half. If you change your price that is going to further cut into profits. You choose to wait it out. 9. someone who is doing doctrine ships buys 8 items at a time. ( this is the next significant change in our market game though their is other back and forth minor trading). 10. I decide to list 6 items at 1,825,000( previous low was 1,845,000) 11. 2 items sell. 4 items left at this price, there are now 14 items that must be bought before you will start filling orders. 12. Another producer from null plops 50 down on the market at 1,820,000. Its going to be a while before you fill orders. It only cost him 1,625,000 to produce the same item. 13. More trades lower the price to 1,807,000. now 58 items between your market order and the lowest offer. 15)i put another 5 items on the market for 1,775,000. This sets off another wave of low ballers. 14. a couple of hours later and the trading has the lowest offer down to 1,762,000 with 74 items until we get to yours. 17)i put another 5 on the marker for 1,700,000. These are all bought up and relisted at 1,761,000. 15. another hour of trading goes by and the price drops to 1,745,000. 16. I place 5 more items on the marker at 1,700,000. I have 25 units left i can place on the market. I dont need to put up a large order to remove my competition. All i need to do is manipulate the market by lowering the price and getting people to list their prices under me. Some will list under me, some above me, and some will buy me out. But i am only acting as a catalyst and letting random people posting sell orders help me lower the prices. You will not sell anything at your price and if you try to sell at the lower price you will have to take a loss. So your only choice is hope that the market recovers to your price point before your time is up. In the meantime ive tied up a few hundred million of your isk because you bought your resources. The ones who buy their resources will be the easiest to take out. The ones who produce from start to finish will be the hardest. But it is far easier to starve people out of the market now than it was with penny wars. In penny wars it would have taken a while just to knock off the first 1000 isk. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/38 "2020-03-14T12:53:42Z")
> [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > despite suffering inconceivable loss. These words you keep using… I do not think they mean what you think they mean. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > killed macroeconomics in it’s literal definition Pretty sure my macro textbook said nothing about EVE market costs. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > a wealthy market bot who doesn’t need to think about what something is worth compared to the time and effort they put into it. If bots and bot owners don’t ‘need to think’ about the new system, they’ll rapidly go broke and/or have piles of unsold orders. The old .01 ISK was the most brainless, bot-easy system you could imagine. The new system will take some adjustment and in the meantime the bots will lose money hand over fist until their owners yank them. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > I agree about perception. I really like this game being a one world player driven economy but the thought that I have to deal with the fact there will always be some cheater out there who will beat me at everything without even trying means that even my greatest successes were a futile and desperate attempt to exchange every effort in my being to try and succeed in an economy full of cheaters. You seriously need to dial back the hyperbole and drama a little. You made a bundle of money on a very artificial system. The current system is also artificially constructed (CCP always seem to go for extremes of poor design), but it’s different, it will change the way orders are placed, and it’s worth an experiment to see what shakes out. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > I don’t even know why I bother to even try or come here and explain what I think. That makes two of us. You waffle between “the sky is falling” and “this is gonna be great for some of us” and “they’ve killed the best part of EVE” not only in the same post, but sometimes in the same paragraph. Maybe you need to spend more time evaluating the changes, and less time posting random thoughts full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Not trying to dump on you or troll you. Let’s just say I find the difference between your older posts replying to other people trying to deal with game mechanisms they had trouble with, and your new posts dealing with the game mechanism _you_ depended on… to be jarring. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/39 "2020-03-14T13:27:06Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > These words you keep using… I do not think they mean what you think they mean. I got that reference! ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/41 "2020-03-14T13:36:15Z")
> [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > I can’t just decide what orders to get rid of on which accounts and use them all at the same time as before. I must rebuild on a micro-scale one account at a time instead of increased cost within the same structure and it’s required upkeep of PLEX and managing what I have set up now while I continue trading. Take a breather, restart from the beginning, enjoy building and analyzing your results. CCP literally removed a gameplay, so of course if you still try to grip to your lost gameplay, that won’t work. Yet yes, the feeling of loss can be painful, but only as long as you think of it. you literally had 2 weeks to prepare. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > Nope, players will lose money and bots will just have the lowest priced sales as always because they won’t need to 0.01 ISK if nobody else who has to work to produce any ISK in this game can’t afford to either. That can literally be applied to the previous state of the game without any difference. Strangely since that change I still make the same amount of benefit per day, even though I’m not a bot. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > Well, CCP did want to get rid of the market bots, stop everyone else and the bots have no more purpose because nobody else can afford to continue undercutting them after players go broke. BS. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > I don’t expect either of us to see things from each others level of perception. Does not change that you are over exaggerating and thus it is perceived like a rant full of salt. > [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > As it seems it is a very bad time to sell anything whether SO or BO the values are not going to be good They are. Just, you sticking to intensive relisting is making your trade bad. It’s like I light a fire, and you keep running in it and then claim I made it impossible to walk. ---
**Author:** ![Shaigh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shaigh/32/430164_2.png) [@Shaigh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shaigh)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/43 "2020-03-14T14:00:00Z")
The reality is that no matter how well you consider the placement of your order, it’s going to be undercut and end up sitting there unless you decide to waste your profit trying to compete with it… Market activity was already in decline when CCP decided to do this, and now players are crashing the markets in desperation to sell their stuff… This being about bots and automated listing changers is a lie… CCP did this because more casual players could not compete with the ones who were laying on their market orders all day long…so many of these players falsely complained that they were up against market bots… CCP’s claim that frequent .01 changes is not human is total BS… Everyone has been changing their orders by the smallest increment… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/44 "2020-03-14T14:04:08Z")
> [@Shaigh](#): > > The reality is that no matter how well you consider the placement of your order, it’s going to be undercut By 0.01 isk. Oh wait. Yeah you are right, thats why no one sells anything ever. Ffs ---
**Author:** ![Shaigh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shaigh/32/430164_2.png) [@Shaigh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shaigh)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/46 "2020-03-14T14:08:51Z")
I’ve been heavily vested in the markets for almost two years, and not once have I ever run into botted relisters… Real players use a .01 change to match yours and go on top with a shorter expiration date… Everyone knows that… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/47 "2020-03-14T14:10:16Z")
Didnt even mention bots. You were undercut before and you are undercut now. What is your point? That you cant sell because you place limits on yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Shaigh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shaigh/32/430164_2.png) [@Shaigh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shaigh)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/48 "2020-03-14T14:12:18Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Didnt even mention bots. Go read the CCP’s announcement about it… They are crystal clear that botting is their excuse for the change… It’s simply not true… This is a veiled excuse to stop players who are spending all day long keeping their orders on top and making it extremely difficult for more casual players to sell… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/50 "2020-03-14T14:28:07Z")
This has nothing to do with you sayin youll get undercut. According to you, youll get undercut now. You were undercut before. Whats the change? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/51 "2020-03-14T14:28:55Z")
> [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > passive like me who waits instead. Apparently, according to other elsewhere, thats not even using the market lol ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Endashi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenneth_endashi/32/256217_2.png) [@Kenneth\_Endashi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenneth_Endashi)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/55 "2020-03-14T15:02:47Z")
You are replying to a known troll who behaves like a cheerleader on this single issue. You made a great point in your opening post, and I appreciate you offering sensitive details about your own operation. Most people are not willing to do that. These critical details, however, are exactly what is needed. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654.md?page=3)