# Actual Numbers from Marketing (Long Post) **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** industrial, feedback\ **Created:** [March 13, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654 "2020-03-13T22:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ghengis\_Tia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ghengis_tia/32/176767_2.png) [@Ghengis\_Tia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ghengis_Tia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/179 "2020-03-21T12:21:47Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > he “one-tick” rule still applies, doesn’t matter that it’s no longer 0.01isk. > > If you’re considering not modifying your order because it costs more than 0.01isk, then you’re doing it wrong. I have no qualms with the elimination of the .01 Isk situation. My beef is with the new Broker’s fees. I had a ‘Thurifer’ Large Cap Battery for sale in Amarr for 495m. After changing the order price 4 times it finally sold. Other sellers also sold their items at roughly that price. Prior to the change, the price change fee would have been 400 Isk total. It cost me almost 20m in broker fees. **That is a 50,000 percent increase!** I trained Adv Broker Relations to IV or it would have been much worse. While other transactions may not be on a similar scale as my item, the overall effect of the new broker’s fees on every seller/trader is chilling. This is an obscene restriction on market competition. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/180 "2020-03-21T12:22:35Z")
Or don’t change your price 4 times. ---
**Author:** ![Ghengis\_Tia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ghengis_tia/32/176767_2.png) [@Ghengis\_Tia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ghengis_Tia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/181 "2020-03-21T12:32:44Z")
Or just not sell the item at all? How does that recoup my investment into materials needed to produce the item? I waited a week before my last price change, and it sold within 12 hours. Four other sellers had priced their item lower than mine. My price was no longer competitive. Don’t you get it? Do you even participate in the market as a seller? The item would still be unsold if I didn’t change the price. Does that make any sense to you? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/182 "2020-03-21T12:35:49Z")
> [@Ghengis\_Tia](#): > > It cost me almost 20m in broker fees. > > **That is a 50,000 percent increase!** How much would it have been if you just put it up as a new item 4 times? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/183 "2020-03-21T12:55:01Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > So what you are saying is items that aren’t manufactured and have historically gone through like 4 or 5 traders before reaching a user might actually not be going through so many middlemen first? I think this will be an important side effect of the new system. Before, as long as you were trading items that bought/sold with reasonable frequency, you could sell whatever and expect that so long as the price movements looked to be profitable soonish or somewhere not too far away, another trader would buy from you and relist them locally or elsewhere even for a slim margin of profit. The current system looks to discourage ‘turnover at any acceptable margin’ and re-sellers, and focus more on pricing items to move to actual end buyers. This should considerably slow down ‘price flipping’ and will likely end in lower prices overall. It should also reduce the daily turnover in most items. (Of course other effects on the supply chain might result in higher prices overall, just saying that one effect on trading volume/turnover would usually lead to lower prices.) Not saying those consequences are good or bad, as yet. Have to wait and see what the ripple effects on the economy are. ---
**Author:** ![Sheldon\_d\_Albion](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sheldon_d_albion/32/496108_2.png) [@Sheldon\_d\_Albion](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sheldon_d_Albion)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/184 "2020-03-21T13:07:23Z")
I won’t have any of your conclusions : - One reason could be that now the sellers flood the BO instead of piling their orders in SO - the trade activities could be so slow, that sellers kill their SO buy adjusting them to the BO price to sum up : the new system to sell is based on BO , and could be that few traders/players put constant BO to make the price stable , the sellers are keeping dumping their stuff through BO . For example , the new 3M (BO) plex could result of the new balance ( The old BO minus the cost of 2-3 relist fee) . Even if this adjustment arrive quicker than what I thought . But one week of observation don’t make a trend … You can watch the evolution of faction item through SO, it is a race to the BO price 😃 Any product in good volum , with a offer \> demand ( even if localized in time) will cause the decrease of the BO amount. ---
**Author:** ![Ghengis\_Tia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ghengis_tia/32/176767_2.png) [@Ghengis\_Tia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ghengis_Tia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/185 "2020-03-21T14:00:40Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > How much would it have been if you just put it up as a new item 4 times? The original broker fee was over 15m for that single item. So there is no relief in cancelling the order and then initiating a new sell order. The 20m in new broker’s fees could have been spent on another player’s item or raw material, thus keeping the capital moving and the market thriving. That 20m just vanishes. It is not spent on something to enrich the game (for example government taxes or fees may be spent on schools, roads, etc.). These new fees are just an enormous Isk sink, and removes that Isk from the game permanently. Is it a mechanism to combat bots? Maybe that is the original intent, but most bots operate out of Jita (an assumption) but every trader/seller in every system is paying the price to fight Jita bots. Is CCP so unfocused that every player in every market has to pay for what happens in the biggest trade hub? Is CCP so impotent that they can’t identify bots in Jita and must punish every market user in order to achieve their goal? Is there any proof this is working to combat bots at all? And just who benefits from bot removal? Is it the smaller trader/seller or the large corporations who have political influence with CCP and are whining about lost profits? Is this just another situation where everyone has to pay the fees but the primary beneficiary are the richest players/corporations? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/186 "2020-03-21T14:04:12Z")
> [@Ghengis\_Tia](#): > > The original broker fee was over 15m for that single item. So there is no relief in cancelling the order and then initiating a new sell order. > > The 20m in new broker’s fees Uh ok. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/187 "2020-03-21T19:45:07Z")
What they are saying badly is relishing the item 4 times would have been 60 million. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/188 "2020-03-21T19:50:55Z")
Ah ok gotcha ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/189 "2020-03-21T21:07:07Z")
> [@Ghengis\_Tia](#): > > How does that recoup my investment into materials needed to produce the item? Why did you get into production of an item that has such a low sales volume that four other copies of it being on the market is an impossible obstacle? Why did you choose to sell it in an area where other players are competing for those few sales? Why did you price it at an optimistic 495m instead of, say, 200m for a faster sale? Stop trying to play the old way, where market success is about being more persistent in updating your prices, and start looking at ways to exploit market opportunities that other players aren’t recognizing. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/190 "2020-03-21T21:08:33Z")
> [@Ghengis\_Tia](#): > > These new fees are just an enormous Isk sink, and removes that Isk from the game permanently. And guess what: ISK sinks are necessary. The nice thing about this one is that it is paid by people who have the least skill at playing the market and players who are better at EVE pay a much smaller share. > And just who benefits from bot removal? Everyone. Bots are bad, period. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/191 "2020-03-21T21:12:52Z")
> [@Ghengis\_Tia](#): > > And just who benefits from bot removal? People that don’t use bots, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/192 "2020-03-21T22:10:01Z")
> [@Ghengis\_Tia](#): > > My beef is with the new Broker’s fees. I had a ‘Thurifer’ Large Cap Battery for sale in Amarr for 495m. After changing the order price 4 times it finally sold. You should look into my “~10mil isk profit block” methodology. 4 relistings would not be an issue if your block sizes are budgeted by a set profit valuation. ---
**Author:** ![Ghengis\_Tia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ghengis_tia/32/176767_2.png) [@Ghengis\_Tia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ghengis_Tia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/193 "2020-03-21T22:43:29Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > You should look into my “~10mil isk profit block” methodology. > > 4 relistings would not be an issue if your block sizes are budgeted by a set profit valuation. > > Please explain the “10m Isk profit block” methodology. what are “block” sizes? Isn’t a “set profit valuation” subjective? You are using terms that make no sense to me. I look at the current market price and sell below that. I don’t need someone to lecture me on the dynamics of market methodology, especially if it involves esoteric concepts that are only known to you. Give me a break… [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/194 "2020-03-21T23:19:57Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > I don’t need someone to lecture me on the dynamics of market methodology Apparently you do, given your complaints about how badly your current strategy is working. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/195 "2020-03-21T23:50:19Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Please explain the “10m Isk profit block” methodology. what are “block” sizes? Isn’t a “set profit valuation” subjective? I created a simple calculator so I can quickly know how big a block I need to earn 10mil profit for whatever item I want. The result of this is my decision making is much less tedious and therefore I can be a lot more aggressive. Because I can quickly determine how much of my profit I’m eating-up with every modified-trade, I can quickly determine if that market is too competitive on the buy-side, sell-side, both…etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sheldon\_d\_Albion](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sheldon_d_albion/32/496108_2.png) [@Sheldon\_d\_Albion](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sheldon_d_Albion)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/196 "2020-03-22T09:30:28Z")
You are quoting a modified quote . He never says that . ---
**Author:** ![Ghengis\_Tia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ghengis_tia/32/176767_2.png) [@Ghengis\_Tia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ghengis_Tia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/197 "2020-03-22T12:22:47Z")
> [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > I created a simple calculator so I can quickly know how big a block I need to earn 10mil profit for whatever item I want. > > The result of this is my decision making is much less tedious and therefore I can be a lot more aggressive. > > Because I can quickly determine how much of my profit I’m eating-up with every modified-trade, I can quickly determine if that market is too competitive on the buy-side, sell-side, both…etc. Okay, I still don’t understand what a “block” is. Do you mean a “block” of items? Are the items identical or are they a number of different items you have for sale at that time? The 10mil profit “for whatever item” doesn’t make sense either. Do you need to make 10mil for a 40K item, and then sell multiples of the item? Or, let’s say you have a 250mil item, and restrict yourself to a 10mil profit, regardless of the current market price? I am assuming the 10mil profit is after you have subtracted all broker’s fees. You only sell items that are not in “too competitive markets”? What constitutes a “too competitive market”? I am a seller, not a trader. That is, I do not hang out at a trade hub and buy low/sell high. I either manufacture my sale items or get them as loot. Maybe your methodology is specifically designed for the trader activity, not a simple sell strategy. In any event, I wish you continued success and prosperity. I’m taking a vacation from the market and will re-evaluate my participation depending on further changes (if any) that may occur. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654/198 "2020-03-22T13:16:49Z")
Just keep in mind that the poster you are replying to is somewhat well known for touting his latest miracle system or technique, only to shortly be faced with replies showing that his system is crap and reveals a deep lack of understanding of the actual game mechanics involved. It never hurts to ask for more info - after all, even a broken watch is right twice a day. But do your own thinking and run your own numbers in most cases… especially this one. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actual-numbers-from-marketing-long-post/225654.md?page=8)