# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/201 "2017-12-06T11:32:45Z")
And now consider this statement If one Minmatar dies during an operation to rescue 5 Minmatar from slavery then it was worth it. And this statement: If 10 Minmatar die during an operation to rescue 1 Minmatar from slavery then it was worth it. And consider this statement as well: If one Amarr dies during an operation to rescue 1 Minmatar from slavery then it was worth it. Agree or disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/202 "2017-12-06T13:09:50Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > “It is better for one Minmatar to die than for one Minmatar to live as a slave.” Option 3: I hate false dichotomies? ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/203 "2017-12-06T13:15:39Z")
The principle has already been established that people like Miz and others are prepared to bomb inhabited worlds into barren rocks to “avenge history”. Now we are haggling on the price. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/204 "2017-12-06T13:28:06Z")
> [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](#): > > I thought the big quotation was visible enough Perhaps you can point out this “big quotation” in your post. I see you quoting Mr Shutaq, and some scattered words and phrases in quotes, but that’s about it. From those I would have assumed \*free all Minmatar but leave the non Minmatar as slaves," which sounded less like a plan and more like a hasty proposition. > [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](#): > > Of course it was only a draft, aren’t we here to discuss about it? f I get that, so let’s work out the details. That’s the point of my reply. It was also to point out that letting the Amarr keep slaves isn’t the cut-and-dry solution it may at first sound like. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/205 "2017-12-06T13:34:43Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Sometimes a range of humane euthanasia options are the only recourse for those who present themselves as a potential burden to society for their genetic predisposition of being functionally unable to integrate within society. Some of our best and brightest are social rejects due to their genetic disposition, would we have been further ahead to have euthanized them before they made their contributions to society based on their “potential burden?” ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/206 "2017-12-06T13:50:37Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Some of our best and brightest are social rejects due to their genetic disposition, would we have been further ahead to have euthanized them before they made their contributions to society based on their “potential burden?” I suppose there is always the independent capsuleer program for those “best and brightest” to post on IGS and be the Caldari Officers they always wanted to be, but could not – a lack of ability to grasp the basics of human social behaviours and cues like, “the reason people insult you is not because they fear you but because they think you’re an impotent blowhard.” be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/207 "2017-12-06T13:53:22Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > I suppose there is always the independent capsuleer Oddly I wasn’t thinking of capsuleers… ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/208 "2017-12-06T13:56:17Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Oddly I wasn’t thinking of capsuleers… Well, we were talking about autism and genetic defects like extra chromosomes so I just assumed the State sent them all to join TEST alliance. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/209 "2017-12-06T13:57:38Z")
Oh I don’t know. The Pendulum Pretense seems to be well stocked. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/210 "2017-12-06T13:59:01Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Well, we were talking about autism and genetic defects like extra chromosomes so I just assumed the State sent them all to join TEST alliance. How is that humane?! ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/211 "2017-12-06T14:04:51Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > How is that humane?! It’s all a matter of perspective. Besides, who else would buy all the shield supers bpo otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/212 "2017-12-06T14:47:32Z")
Perhaps some of those poor souls just need to see a [Brain Specialist](https://youtu.be/XyFfmGf3b2Y). Condemning them to TEST seems so… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/213 "2017-12-06T14:48:16Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Then any discussion of peaceful resolutions is ultimately pointless, because as long as Amarr exists the Reclaiming is not going away. So if people want to preach some binary ‘abandon peace or abandon the Reclaiming’ mindset, then they might as well start stockpiling ammunition, because at no point will peace be valued higher than Amarr’s mission. And thus, we all keep buying bullets. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > The Federation has its own beliefs of what humanity should believe. Is it wrong of them, just because some people might want to spread those values through more forceful means? Nope. But those people in the Federation who believe everyone _must_ (not just _should_) eventually be brought to believe in mob rule and anarchy? Yeah. They’re wrong to believe that anyone _needs_ to be converted, and if they were to hold power for any extended period of time, they’d probably foment a war. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Amarr religious missions must be allowed to enter and operate within the Republic’s borders. These should be non-government organizations and non-state actors, for obvious reasons of preventing direct Imperial influence over their congregations. In a theocracy, no religious mission can be a non-government organization. Even if their funding doesn’t come _directly_ from the government, their direction _does_, by virtue of the government being the doctrinal body that directs the faith. All clergy of the Amarr faith are, by definition, agents of the Throne. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Ending generational slavery rather than emancipating everyone at once is one way to end the institution, but stealing away children from their families to deliver to the Republic is an absolutely vile proposition. That is absurd. It would, in fact, be just as much a form of cultural enslavement as the Reclaiming. The children should be raised by their families, as free citizens who can choose their own course in life. Well, as ‘free’ as anyone can really be in a society that has a top-down power structure where the populace is more rightly called ‘subjects’ than ‘citizens’. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > The methods used to carry it out can be adjusted. And the adjusted methods will eventually reach the end of their usefulness. At some point, everyone who can be peacefully convinced _will_ be. And then what? Back to bullets. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > > > This would probably be rejected by the Amarr too, but what if they secularized Reclaiming. > > _spit-takes_ Oh my stars and garters, I think this whole thread paid for itself right there. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > The question is, would Minmatar even consider the time and effort required to do that without destroying the Empire utterly? You’ve had time. We’ve seen where you’ve put your effort. > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I think Ms Mizhara, in most class, gender and race struggles the oppressed have had to, more often than not, take power from the oppressing group in order to gain equality within that society What, you mean like a violent and bloody rebellion? Checked that box. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I have made the first move by admitting the mistakes the Empire made when attempting to Reclaim your people, and am willing to suffer the consequences for those mistakes. This is the basic problem, though, Aldrith—you’re _not_. That’s what this whole thread is: an attempt to evade the consequences. You come into someone’s home, beat them bloody, kidnap their children, and then say ‘ok, let’s try to resolve this amicably’. Amarr culture/law/faith says that responsibility for transgressions, and the restitution owed from them, is hereditary. That’s the basis for generational slavery: the children bear the burdens of their ancestors’ sins. With this in mind, the current generation of Amarr is responsible for the actions of their forebears. To have _the Amarr_ side saying ‘ok, we might make a deal but it involves you giving up more just to get your stuff back’ _reeks_ of insincerity and dishonesty. It implies straight off that by Amarr standards—by _your own standards_—you’re denying that anything that took place was a transgression. If there was a transgression, there should be restitution. If this has to be a matter of equal concession, then there’s no restitution. And if there’s no restitution, there’s no admission of transgression. That means there’s no basis to think the original action won’t be repeated, because clearly the _act_ was ok, the problem only stems from ‘we didn’t manage to _get away with it_ this time’. It presents a _prima facie_ image of deceit, of not negotiating in good faith. It’s a _problem_. And it’s a problem that’s only reinforced by the insistence that Amarr cultural material and agents of the Throne (see above) be allowed to continue compounding the original offense. “I know I broke in and sodomized your wife, but if you want me to give back your kids, you need to agree that I can come back in and proposition them whenever I like.” It’s just _crass_. And it’s insulting, on the face of it. I don’t think anyone _wants_ an all-out war—not even Miz—if there’s another way to secure the freedom of our people without sacrificing more of them on the altar of ‘patience’ than we already have. I’ve advocated patience in the past. I’m sure you remember that. But there’s been no movement, nothing that can even be said to be movement toward movement. There’s no sign of even _bad_ faith to hang that hat on, anymore. Patience has its limits. If you truly want to heal old wounds, as you say, then you have to start off by acknowledging that those wounds are not equivalent, and both sides do not bear equal responsibility for the injuries in the first place. I respect that you see slavery as a blight and a wound upon the Empire as well… but _that_ wound is self-inflicted. So what’s the way forward? As long as the Amarr cling to the concept of the Reclaiming, the _mandate_ that all of humanity _must_ be brought to God… how can we trust you? If we can’t trust you, whither peace? I get that you’d like to base it all in realpolitik and say that there are economic and diplomatic foundations that can be laid, and I’d love to agree… but the Empire, from our point of view, will _always_ be negotiating with a dagger behind its back. Kick a beast in the face, again and again, and it’s not going to trust you to pat its head. It’s going to bite your hand off. Without cultural change, I just don’t see how the Empire can ever be trusted to negotiate in good faith. Do you? Do you even see what I’m saying about our perspective in this? How would you propose we overcome that obstacle? ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/214 "2017-12-06T15:13:28Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > > > I think Ms Mizhara, in most class, gender and race struggles the oppressed have had to, more often than not, take power from the oppressing group in order to gain equality within that society, > > What, you mean like a violent and bloody rebellion? Checked that box. Not necessarily, but yes. Consider it me resigning to the fact that if nothing breaks soon then nothing will change. Amarr society is set up to protect the status quo, as are societies in general. My point is that oppressive groups don’t always know how they’re being oppressive, or they invent comforting stories out of whole cloth to quell their misgivings about how they’re treating a whole other group of people. So no, I’m not saying what I said out of nativity. It’s simply recognizing historical precedent, and it may have to continue happening amongst the slave populations of Amarr until they gain their freedom down to the last person. This despite any decrees from the Amarrian throne, outside political pressure, or even all-out war. ---
**Author:** ![Mitara\_Newelle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mitara_newelle/32/384431_2.png) [@Mitara\_Newelle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mitara_Newelle)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/215 "2017-12-06T15:33:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I just don’t see how the Empire can ever be trusted to negotiate in good faith. Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the Republic since they are the ones with the track record of breaking treaties. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/216 "2017-12-06T15:56:48Z")
> [@Mitara\_Newelle](#): > > Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the Republic since they are the ones with the track record of breaking treaties. You have the unmitigated gall to attempt to lecture us on morality and interstellar law? Wow, that’s breathtaking. Listen and listen well: - It was YOUR PEOPLE who crossed the stars, encountered my ancestors and decided they would be easy pickings for your twisted uses. - It was YOUR PEOPLE who attacked and invaded Minmatar worlds, unprovoked, and then systematically kidnapped, murdered, raped and enslaved my ancestors by the tens of millions. - It was YOUR PEOPLE who occupied Minmatar worlds for a thousand years and systematically attempted to wipe out our entire cultural and spiritual heritage replacing it with your own. - It is YOUR PEOPLE who, to this very day, carry out slave raids in Republic space using Imperial Navy warships in contravention of SIGNED TREATIES. You slavers have over thousands of years demonstrated by your bellicose words and acts that it is YOU who cannot be trusted. Look, I desire a true lasting peace between our people but not at the price your husband and the rest of the so-called progressives seem to be asking. I applaud his effort but, so long as the “reclaiming” remains at the very heart of everything the Amarr do, there can be no peace. YOU are, and will always be, the greatest threat to humanity’s existence in the cluster. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/217 "2017-12-06T16:13:25Z")
> [@Mitara\_Newelle](#): > > Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the Republic since they are the ones with the track record of breaking treaties. I do hope you’re not trying to lump the Elder Fleet in under this umbrella. A fleet built by the Thukkers while they weren’t part of the Republic, supported and defended by renegades and deserters _hardly_ qualifies as an arm of ‘the Republic’. I think they’d be better categorized as ‘badasses’ and ‘heroes’, really. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/218 "2017-12-06T16:17:11Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > - It was YOUR PEOPLE who crossed the stars, encountered my ancestors and decided they would be easy pickings for your twisted uses. > > - It was YOUR PEOPLE who attacked and invaded Minmatar worlds, unprovoked, and then systematically kidnapped, murdered, raped and enslaved my ancestors by the tens of millions. > > - It was YOUR PEOPLE who occupied Minmatar worlds for a thousand years and systematically attempted to wipe out our entire cultural and spiritual heritage replacing it with your own. > > - It is YOUR PEOPLE who, to this very day, carry out slave raids in Republic space using Imperial Navy warships in contravention of SIGNED TREATIES. You forgot the bit about glassing an entire planet because all their super-effective high technology and awesome military couldn’t find _one murderer_ while he was in hiding… _Oh wait_, my bad! **They never even tried.** ‘What’s that? One renegade slave ran away? Kill them all!’ ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/219 "2017-12-06T16:26:25Z")
It’s how you know they’re civilised and not savages. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/220 "2017-12-06T16:33:12Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > You slavers have over thousands of years demonstrated by your bellicose words and acts that it is YOU who cannot be trusted. Because ancient wisdom is clearly the best wisdom. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=12)