# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/241 "2017-12-07T03:05:52Z")
This thread is masturbatory sophistry, t-b-h. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/242 "2017-12-07T03:45:45Z")
I’m sorry we’re not _entertaining_ you in the manner you desire. Perhaps find a thread more to your liking to ride your high horse through? ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/243 "2017-12-07T06:12:21Z")
There’s a point, Arrendis, past which original aggression blurs. Miz wants freedom for “her” people … who may not recognize themselves as hers. You point to centuries of suffering … under the rule of people long dead. And yet both of these claims have force, power, conviction. They’re genuine, or genuine enough to fuel a death of worlds. Your claim isn’t pure, either, though, and your perspective is not mine. I could kill you to defend what you threaten, and not shed a tear for the wrongness of the act. I could break Miz’s will to survive, without consideration for the innocents I would harm to do so. That I don’t seek to do such things, is more to the credit of your enemy than yourselves. But their cause isn’t pure, either… ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/244 "2017-12-07T07:02:06Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m sorry we’re not entertaining you in the manner you desire. Perhaps find a thread more to your liking to ride your high horse through? You’re full of yourself a lot, honestly. I have a fun little image that I cooked up some time ago - about a month, actually. I took the top eight threads I saw and got the top five posters from each one. ![trending](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/f/c/fc4a1b7e9ef790adb8cdef0dc2e768ad5da2a1e1.png) Like, I’m not saying I’m the post police, or anything, but come on. It’s the same arguments presented in the same way, so lovingly layered in undisguised high-school condescension again and again and again. Which, well… isn’t really happening in this thread, but I’d rather not make a new one just to post this, so… convenience, I guess. I’m just always wondering where the long-winded commentary can meet succinct and candid points. EDIT: Slightly adjusted to not be a raging douche. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/245 "2017-12-07T08:04:50Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Miz wants freedom for “her” people … who may not recognize themselves as hers. Once they are free to make their own decisions, it doesn’t matter anymore. Then they are _their own_ people, responsible for themselves. My responsibility then shrinks to those who still lift their hands upwards in the hopes that we will carry them home. Until they _are_ free, they remain my responsibility, like I was the responsibility of the one who took mine. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I could break Miz’s will to survive I suspect you’re not up to a task the Empire failed. ---
**Author:** ![Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/umbre_fallenstar/32/260859_2.png) [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Umbre_Fallenstar)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/246 "2017-12-07T08:20:56Z")
@Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt I must agree that when you start as a IGS participant, it’s a little bit like that how you feel like the community is 😕 it’s not really engaging when you try to come in for the first time 😕 It feel a little bit like the pre-alpha elitism problem in new eden. but I digress from the thread ^^ @Aldrith_Shutaq still waiting a response to my proposal, I’m starting to feel that you only treat response going in your way of proving that the problem come only from the minmatars 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/247 "2017-12-07T12:04:10Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Your claim isn’t pure, either, though, and your perspective is not mine > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > That I don’t seek to do such things, is more to the credit of your enemy than yourselves. But their cause isn’t pure, either… Well then, Ms Jenneth, what solution would you bring to the table? ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/248 "2017-12-07T12:15:16Z")
I sense a challenge in those words, but I can’t decide if it’s to post more meaningful content, or post more often than Ms Arrendis. 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/249 "2017-12-07T12:38:36Z")
An aspect you need to consider is that the reason there’s a re-threading of the same old ground over several threads is that the issue _is_ that significant and there has been no further development or solutions in sight. This means the options are either to start pretending the issue is no longer there, or keep at it until a crack is found in the blocking wall where enough pressure can be applied to get past it. Yes, this is hardly very entertaining, but that isn’t exactly the purpose. It’s also rather varied in quality of argumentation and contribution, from everyone involved, simply due to the fact that it’s a varied kind of audience and everyone has slumps and peaks in both performance and capacity for effort. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/250 "2017-12-07T12:50:38Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Miz wants freedom for “her” people … who may not recognize themselves as hers. People keep bringing this up. You, Shutaq, everyone defending the Amar really. See, unlike the Amarr I’d actually be content to leave those who want to stay. As long as they are a free, as long as they can choose for themselves. I am not advocating of forced removal of those who are Minmatar through their blood but Amarr in their soul. No one has. If this was trying to be somekind of claim that all Minmatar have been converted, that is simply not true. Minmatar that now live in the Republic resisted conversion for over 700 years. Despite over a hundred years passing since the Rebellion, there are still trillions of Minmatar who will resist it. But, like Miz has been saying, every day a few more break. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > You point to centuries of suffering … under the rule of people long dead. For many, the suffering never ended. It is perpetrated even today. Some Holders might be benevolent and kind, but for every such Holder there is one who is sadistic and cruel, for whom the life of a slave is worth less (or, indeed _worthless_) than buying a machine that would replace the workload of a thousand of slaves, for whom a slave is just that, property, a thing, not something to care for as a human being. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > That I don’t seek to do such things, is more to the credit of your enemy than yourselves. Is your “blood oath” or whatever it was that you used to justify not having a will of your own, that makes you disregard the suffering of others also a credit for the Amarr? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/251 "2017-12-07T13:58:02Z")
> [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](#): > > Like, I’m not saying I’m the post police, or anything, but “but I’m gonna be the post police.” > [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](#): > > It’s the same arguments presented in the same way, so lovingly layered in undisguised high-school condescension again and again and again. Which, well… isn’t really happening in this thread, but I’d rather not make a new one just to post this, so… convenience, I guess. “There’s this thing I wanna complain about, so lemme crap all over you here even though it’s not happening here.” > [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](#): > > EDIT: Slightly adjusted to not be a raging douche. Should’ve adjusted more. So lemme slightly adjust my statement… > [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m sorry we’re not _entertaining_ you in the manner you desire. Screw you and the high horse you rode in on. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/252 "2017-12-07T14:13:59Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Well then, Ms Jenneth, what solution would you bring to the table? Hm. Well … that’s fair to ask. Please understand that I’m speaking for myself only. The current armed conflict in the Bleak Lands doesn’t seem to serve a lot of purpose. I used to feel like it was a sort of pressure valve, bleeding away the tension, but, I’m not so sure of that anymore. That should probably just end, with a return to preexisting sovereign political borders. The prior Empress declared that the “time of chains” was ending. It should probably finish ending. I realize it’ll probably be hard to do this fast, but steps need to be plotted out, steady ones. Just sending all those people to the Republic would probably kind of explode both economies, but giving people a chance to go, or stay, as they prefer might work pretty well, especially if it’s done in phases. The Amarr might see this as a betrayal of the Reclaiming, but, maybe it should be the _least_ acculturated who get priority for release? If the timing for Relcaiming by the sword is ending, then a good way to prove that is by letting those who were to be Reclaimed in that way go, and taking another go at Reclaiming them, later, by peaceful means. About the Reclaiming: asking that it end, period, isn’t a realistic goal. It’s like asking the Gallente to stop going on about rights. The Reclaiming’s just a little bit more … formal? … as a cultural trait. Peacefully conducted, it still worries me in kind of a similar way to Gallentean cultural imperialism, but, looking at it a different way, our own cultures and faiths should be strong enough to withstand a bunch of earnest religious sorts who basically just want to talk to us. And, of course, a dialog goes both ways-- we get the chance to influence them back. Really, the Republic already goes along with this way beyond what the State allows: basically tolerating the believers in its midst, without punishing them for trying to spread their faith. I’m not sure the Republic should have to do such a thing within its own borders, but, it’s chosen to prioritize blood-- family, if you like-- over religious belief, and I kind of admire the decision. The Imperial side of this is pretty much stuff I think the Empire should do for its own sake, regardless of whether it’s part of an agreement with the Republic: committing to the principles of Pax Amarria. Actually, going ahead with it without asking for compensation of some sort would probably make the Matari militarist cause harder to sustain, and definitely to build up in the ways Miz and Arrendis imagine. As for stuff the Republic should do? … well, it’s probably going to be hard to ask you to let go of your grudge, at least in the short term. Not shooting people or plotting further surprise attacks with secretly-constructed capital fleets would be nice, as a start. The Amarr would be way more likely to expect the next one, anyway. Maybe, going forward, just make sure that diplomacy’s done in good faith? You could say, of course, that you don’t owe such a thing to the Amarr, but I don’t mean for their sake. The whole cluster saw the attack on CONCORD HQ by the Elder Fleet, and the incursion into Federal space by Matari dreadnoughts after Karin Midular’s murder. Being known as breakers of treaties, initiators of hostilities, and violators of borders won’t do you favors, moving forward. Nobody else cares very much how justified you feel. (That goes, to an extent, for the Caldari, too. The Amarr and Gallente seem like aggressors to us, but they weren’t the ones who broke faith this time.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/253 "2017-12-07T14:22:18Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > There’s a point, Arrendis, past which original aggression blurs. There certainly is, Aria. But that doesn’t ever mean the _aggressor_ gets to define where the crime was. It doesn’t mean the _aggressor_ gets to tell the victim what should make it all ok. I don’t get to murder Aldrith’s kids and then say ‘but look at how much that ammo cost me, isn’t that restitution enough?’ The _offender_ who wishes to avoid retribution doesn’t get to frelling _dictate terms_ to his _victims_. Find me a single civil litigation system where that’s considered reasonable, and I’ll lay you good odds it was designed by the Amarr. Because that’s what Aldrith’s doing here. And it’s why I say that no, there is no way to trust the Empire in any overtures toward ‘peace’: because they believe we don’t have to right to decide what we want redressed. They think we don’t get to decide what we consider wrong, and hold them accountable for. And no matter how much they might want to tell us ‘no no, the Reclaiming is a _gift_’… it’s not. Its specific intent is the death of our ways, the death of our identity. No, someone seeking to murder us and replace us with people who look like us but think like them? Not someone we can trust. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > You point to centuries of suffering … under the rule of people long dead. And in so doing, I point to a people _now_ who have lost much of their history, much of the culture and identity we _would_ have had, a people who by all surviving accounts on both sides were _peaceful_, who—if the Starkmanir are any example—might well have welcomed the chance to learn of the Amarr faith and been _happy_ with those who brought it… but are instead _maimed and mutilitated_, emotionally and culturally. We are transformed, _by them_, into a people of violence, vengeance, rage, and hate. It’s an injury that can _never_ be undone. And I point to a people _now_ who to this day continue to _benefit_ from that maiming, that savaging. We keep hearing it straight from them, Aria: _we_ are their labor force. _WE_ are the engine of their economy. Remove us now, it collapses, but more: _we built it_. Nearly a thousand years of Amarr advancement has been _on our backs_. Every Amarr alive today enjoys the standard of living they do _because their ancestors brutalized ours_. People point to the Amarr and attempt their nonsense about ‘but see how long they’ve endured, how well they’ve done!’ and it’s _lies_. They haven’t done well. They’ve _stolen_ all that advancement and labor from _us_. So yes, Aria, the centuries-long systemic _theft of our bloody potential_ is something that there needs be restitution for, as well. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Just sending all those people to the Republic Why do all of the Amarr and the retainers of the Amarr keep bringing this up like _anyone_ has suggested it? **THE ONLY PERSON WHO EVER DECIDED THAT WAS THE THING TO DO WAS THE DAMNED EMPRESS.** Why do you think so many people feel that was actually an economic _attack_? > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > maybe it should be the least acculturated who get priority for release? Just gonna point out, this would mean those most in danger of losing who they were completely would remain in chains so the Amarr have more time to make it all _stick_. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Nobody else cares very much how justified you feel. > > (That goes, to an extent, for the Caldari, too. The Amarr and Gallente seem like aggressors to us, but they weren’t the ones who broke faith this time.) Just to point out the similarities between us and the Caldari: I don’t really think either of us give a fetid fedo fart if anyone else cares. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/254 "2017-12-07T14:35:31Z")
Well … that might be what you would want, Arrendis. What you ask, I expect, there’s no real ability to provide; and what can’t be done, won’t. Realistically, though, I wonder: if the Amarr actually did commit to their Pax, would you still have enough support to pose a credible threat to them? How do you end the conflict? … Make the anger sustaining the Matari cause unsustainable, its proponents unreasonable extremists even in the eyes of their own. Your anger is your strength. Stealing an enemy’s strength is a time-honored Amarrian strategy. That’s what the Empire should do, now. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/255 "2017-12-07T14:41:36Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Your anger is your strength. Stealing an enemy’s strength is a time-honored Amarrian strategy. That’s what the Empire should do, now. I think you wildly underestimate the effect of _kin in chains_ upon a tribal society this proud of freedom, Aria. This wrath, if anything, grows until the cause is no more. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/256 "2017-12-07T14:46:49Z")
That’s you, speaking for yourself, Miz. And probably a lot of others, too, but-- if there were a concrete schedule for the phasing out of slavery, and the Amarr were sticking to it without trying to drop any economic bombs on the Republic … I wonder how many you’d still be speaking for. ---
**Author:** ![Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/umbre_fallenstar/32/260859_2.png) [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Umbre_Fallenstar)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/257 "2017-12-07T14:52:51Z")
I cannot agree more with you. It’s exactly what I tried to pass in my last proposal. We cannot force the amarrians to change their ways especially about the reclaiming except by force (and I’m not even sure it would do it) so arguing over and over the “end all slavery” is never going anywhere, as I said in my post, me must find a peaceful way, even if not immediately perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/258 "2017-12-07T14:53:47Z")
More than enough. I know this is something your kind can’t actually grasp or understand, but there are certain things that come with being Matari that doesn’t get extinguished through such means. I genuinely wish it weren’t so, because it wasn’t part of us before the Day of Darkness, but in this the Amarr have created their own worst enemy. These hundreds and even thousand of years have forged something that isn’t that easily broken. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/259 "2017-12-07T14:59:08Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I wonder: if the Amarr actually did commit to their Pax, would you still have enough support to pose a credible threat to them? Do they still hold Matari in chains? Then yes, we would. If not… then we’ve _won_. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/260 "2017-12-07T15:03:30Z")
I’m not sure that’s a bad thing for the Amarr even if you italicize it, Arrendis. But that’s in the long run. Getting there’s the trick. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=14)