# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/301 "2017-12-07T19:16:58Z")
If the numbers that have been seen over the years are “rogue ones”, then I have to question exactly what kind of people get recruited to the navy. Those are some staggering percentages in play. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/302 "2017-12-07T19:27:43Z")
I know. … But I also believe Lord Consort Newelle when he says he considers such acts illegal, worthy of enslavement or execution, and I expect he’s not at all alone in that. A lot of Amarr seem to react with visceral anger towards illegal slave-taking, seeing it as a corruption of what’s supposed to be a solemn, even kind of grim, duty. Maybe I’m naive, but, to me, that feeling doesn’t seem feigned. So … I don’t know. Maybe we’ll find out at some point. Either way, putting a stop to it, at least to Imperial units’ apparent involvement, might be a really good start and show of good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/303 "2017-12-07T19:39:47Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > A lot of Amarr seem to react with visceral anger towards illegal slave-taking, seeing it as a corruption of what’s supposed to be a solemn, even kind of grim, duty. Maybe I’m naive, but, to me, that feeling doesn’t seem feigned. Ah yes, this makes the Empire more trustworthy indeed. _Some_ people might not be lying their arses off, sort of kind of, except they also claim it’s all “Rogue elements” except you know that’s pretty much impossible given the amount in question and that they’re _unceasing and never-ending_. So you know, lying. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Either way, putting a stop to it, at least to Imperial units’ apparent involvement, might be a really good start and show of good faith. Bit late. These things have been going on since long before either of us were capsuleers. Yet they, and even you, try to make that Elder Fleet out to be the ‘breach of faith’ while knowing perfectly well neither side has ever held to any cease-fire or peace treaty at any point in time since the Day of Darkness. This is something you feel should be trusted in _any_ kind of future dealings? It’s lies upon lies upon deception and misdirection and lies and spin from beginning to end. Say what you will about us war proponents, but at least our hostility is honest. Trying to preach peace and goody gumdrops _while lying constantly_ is hardly inspiring trust or good will. ---
**Author:** ![Louella\_Dougans](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louella_dougans/32/402944_2.png) [@Louella\_Dougans](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Louella_Dougans)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/304 "2017-12-07T19:40:23Z")
The Martyr-Empress Jamyl 1, said the age of Slavery was coming to an end, in a vision granted to her by the Creator. For the past several years, I have been steadily trying to spread the Imperial Faith through peaceful means. The people I rescue from space, I try and provide employment for them. Others, who expressed a wish to travel to the Republic, I have assisted in that as well. Such is the limit of my power as a non-Holder citizen. (My Grandmother is a Holder, I am not) ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/305 "2017-12-07T20:01:21Z")
Maybe, Miz, but if the Empire gets serious about establishing the Pax Amarria as policy (adopting it into scripture, which I think is under consideration, would be an obvious step towards that), I somehow don’t think the Republic is going to see going all-out as such a desirable thing. History’s not nothing. It’s not everything, either, though, and at some point “trust” is irrelevant in the face of standing to gain a lot of what you wanted without having to shoot or get shot. “You look like you’re doing things we want to see, but we can’t trust you, so we’re going to walk into an apocalyptic war we’re likely to lose.” … somehow I don’t see that as a popular statement in any society. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/306 "2017-12-07T20:03:44Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I know. … But I also believe Lord Consort Newelle when he says he considers such acts illegal, worthy of enslavement or execution, and I expect he’s not at all alone in that. I don’t. Because it’s a pretty cut-and-dry thing, don’t you think? If it was _really_ illegal, the Navy wouldn’t be doing it _at scale_. Because you can’t do that without a paper trail. You can’t have _all_ of those assets involved without fuelling, supplies, maintenance, and other logsticial concerns that _all need to be tracked_. Can’t do it. The sheer scope of that effort says it’s not _possible_ for that to all be off the books unless there is literally _an entire illegal Imperial Navy that nobody in the Navy knows about_. He can say he doesn’t like them. He can claim he considers them worthy of enslavement or execution. But claiming it’s _illegal_ or in some way _not_ operating under the imprimatur of the very Throne whose whims _he is sworn to be obedient to_ would mean either he’s _lying_, or he’s the brain-dead lovechild of Napkins and DK’s third-ever corpse.. And I don’t think he’s a half-Khanid/half-Caldari-zombie moron. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/307 "2017-12-07T20:05:41Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > “You look like you’re doing things we want to see, but we can’t trust you, so we’re going to walk into an apocalyptic war we’re likely to lose.” … somehow I don’t see that as a popular statement in any society. How about ‘You look like you’re doing something we don’t hate. But we know you never do things we don’t hate. This is a trap. Time to kill you.’ Paranoid? Little bit. Unwarranted paranoia? Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/308 "2017-12-07T20:21:29Z")
Popular sentiment? Uh … yeah, no. If the Empire actually adopts the Pax-as-policy approach, efforts at rallying popular outrage will be like running up a sand dune. (Have you tried that? It’s kind of fun. Also kind of frustrating. I mean, you CAN make progress, but it’s way more work than it ought to be.) … This is where I maybe mention the flaw, or I should say the unknown, in all this: Empress Catiz I. She hasn’t given big indications on what her thoughts are on this stuff, and the Tash-Murkon family is known to have a broad mercenary streak; it’s totally possible she’ll decide running roughshod over the Republic and all of a sudden having a whole population of new wares to sell and lots of business in the arms trade will be just fantastic for the Imperial economy. Empress Jamyl I hailed from House Sarum, though, and they’re the only House that still officially thinks Reclaiming by the sword is an awesome idea. She didn’t seem to pursue that policy as Empress very aggressively, and even declared outright that the time of chains is ending. To which, by this insignificant heathen outsider: Good? I don’t know about you and Miz, but I really hope Catiz takes Heideran VII as her guiding star. If she ends up looking at rival nation-states as wares to be harvested and sold, we might be in for a rough patch of history. ---
**Author:** ![Louella\_Dougans](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louella_dougans/32/402944_2.png) [@Louella\_Dougans](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Louella_Dougans)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/309 "2017-12-07T20:23:26Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > If she ends up looking at rival nation-states as wares to be harvested and sold, we might be in for a rough patch of history. Dead people tend not to buy too many products made in the manufacturies of Tash-Murkon Prime. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/310 "2017-12-07T20:30:51Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > He can say he doesn’t like them. He can claim he considers them worthy of enslavement or execution. But claiming it’s _illegal_ or in some way _not_ operating under the imprimatur of the very Throne whose whims _he is sworn to be obedient to_ would mean either he’s _lying_, or he’s the brain-dead lovechild of Napkins and DK’s third-ever corpse… It _is_ illegal. By interstellar laws, which CONCORD oversaw and Imperial representatives signed. Those laws might be ignored on a widespread level, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is illegal and those who support it in any way are sinners before God. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/311 "2017-12-07T20:33:03Z")
What would this then say when the Empire’s officials are pretty much guaranteed to wholly support these raids then? It would be pretty impossible, as previously mentioned, to hide these raids from official oversight, yet here we are. Where does the Sinners before God bit stop, I wonder? Some Navy Captains? Admiral? High Grand Poobah of the Rite? The Empress? ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/312 "2017-12-07T20:34:19Z")
It would say that there is widespread corruption and sacrilege. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/313 "2017-12-07T20:42:08Z")
Okay, I was reading through the replies to my post and feeling frustrated with people taking what I said, at least in my opinion, out of context. However, upon reflection I see that I failed to provide that context particularly to those who have just joined this discussion. Yes, I think that _ideally_ Reclaiming should be secularized all the way through _and_ humanized, but I’m enough of a realist to know that’s _NOT_ going to happen. At least not in normal human lifetimes. What I’m proposing is a secularization of Reclaiming outside of the Empire where there Reclaiming would be subject to all the stupulations I’ve already outlined. Here is where I first outlined this idea. > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > It would involve some secularization, a dirty word to those who don’t know that it means, of the concept. At minimum Reclaiming would not be allowed to influence politics in areas **outside of Amarr space** to promote Amarr faith, ideals or agendas above others in the political arena, nor be used to coerce free agents, which would ideally include slaves, into your faith. Such a position would apply to all faiths across the board as one’s faith should not be a test for political power or position. The Amarr faith would have to be content with acting as an equal contender among other faiths and religions anywhere **outside of Amarr space**. As you can see, I’m _NOT_ talking about secularizing Reclaiming inside the Empire, only outside of it. Humanizing the concept definitely needs to occur on both sides of the border. So I own my error in not making this clearer the last time. Hopefully this makes my position clearer. > [@Arrendis](#): > > What you seek there is literally for them to be not Amarr. In light of my actual position, not entirely. I just want to put limits on their Reclaiming practices outside of the Empire as well as see that it’s humanized. Abolishing Reclaiming completely, as some have posited (and I can’t blame them for their stance), would certainly be an attempt to change the Amarr. I don’t want to deAmarr the Amarr. I just want to stop them from trying to beat everyone over the head with their damn Reclaiming and god beliefs. Though I realize I might be asking too much if these things are necessary to be Amarr. Still, I need to put the idea of there and keep pushing it until someone comes up with something better. ---
**Author:** ![Louella\_Dougans](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louella_dougans/32/402944_2.png) [@Louella\_Dougans](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Louella_Dougans)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/314 "2017-12-07T20:46:27Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > secularizing Reclaiming The Reclaiming is to bring God’s message to every planet of every star. And you want to… _secularise_ it ? I’m sorry but, what ? ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/315 "2017-12-07T20:48:30Z")
> [@Louella\_Dougans](#): > > The Reclaiming is to bring God’s message to every planet of every star. It’s also described as unifying all of humanity . Is it such a far stretch for that to be a secular goal? God doesn’t need to be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/316 "2017-12-07T20:50:23Z")
I have no problem with the Amarr bringing God’s message, as long as it by philosophical means rather than military. When they start pointing guns at people and telling them to believe or be enslaved…their God suddenly seems more unappealing… The only way to end the slavery ‘issue’ is to stop holding slaves. To my mind the problem isn’t whether they should be held or not (clearly saying they _should_ be is nonsense). The problem is simply how to deal with the vast number of newly freed people. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/317 "2017-12-07T20:50:43Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > It’s also described as unifying all of humanity . Is it such a far stretch for that to be a secular goal? God doesn’t need to be a part of it. The concept of secular thought or action does not exist for us. God is all-encompassing, and secularization is a completely alien and false concept. It’s like saying you exist without considering the laws of physics. Our religion is true. There is no separation between it and any aspect of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Louella\_Dougans](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louella_dougans/32/402944_2.png) [@Louella\_Dougans](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Louella_Dougans)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/318 "2017-12-07T20:52:35Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > It’s also described as unifying all of humanity . Is it such a far stretch for that to be a secular goal? God doesn’t need to be a part of it. _Sansha Kuvakei_ wants to unify all of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/319 "2017-12-07T20:53:16Z")
> [@Louella\_Dougans](#): > > Sansha Kuvakei wants to unify all of humanity. It’s all about the method and the message. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/320 "2017-12-07T20:54:42Z")
> [@Louella\_Dougans](#): > > Sansha Kuvakei wants to unify all of humanity. Secular methods need not emulate the Sansha. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=17)