# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/401 "2017-12-08T00:51:07Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > > [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](#): > > > > While most, if not almost all Amarr are against slave raids and do not participate in them, it’s, uhh… well, last I checked, kind of the Khanid Kingdom’s big thing. > > I cannot comment on the Kingdom. Really shouldn’t. I might start a thing. But it will come. Let me help. Ahem. I wouldn’t put it past the Kingdom to make slave raids while flashing Imperial Navy IFF signatures. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/402 "2017-12-08T01:00:02Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > In fairness, ma’am, the Jove seem to have risen way before the Amarr (if they ever really fell, even, since all of our pre-history) and only fell … basically yesterday. ^^What she said. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/403 "2017-12-08T01:08:07Z")
> [@Louella\_Dougans](#): > > Whereas, in Amarr, every individual has the Scriptures to provide guidance, which allows progress to be made, as people are not forever starting over from the basics. Yet the Federation and the Caldari exist and are quite advanced technologically and socially, even on par in many areas with the Amarrian Empire. Even the Minmatar, despite centuries of repression by the Amarr, have quickly risen. None of the above can claim perfection and many, if not most, of the differences in technology or social structures are merely matters of degree. This, among other reasons, is why most of us outside your Empire remain unconvinced that your religion has made you superiour in any way to the rest of us. Even if we didn’t find slavery a backwards practice harking to an era of ignorance… ---
**Author:** ![Akkad\_Akaya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/akkad_akaya/32/55799_2.png) [@Akkad\_Akaya](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Akkad_Akaya)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/404 "2017-12-08T01:10:23Z")
The issue between the Minmatar and the Amarr will always be slavery of Minmatar. They’re notoriously xenophobic, however. You never hear them talking about criminal slaves from our own people or even the odd Gallente slave. It’s always about _them_. The thing is, slavery will never end in and of itself. In the Amarr Empire, slavery has a very different face than it does in other parts of the cluster. You never hear them complaining about the horrors of Sansha or the sex trafficking within Guristas and the Covenant. They have a one track mind because they don’t want to see the whole picture. They want their little tribe and their fantasy of rebuilding their lost history. The past is dead, man. Me I’m looking to the future and what that might hold. We could free all of the Minmatar slaves tomorrow and survive, I know we could. Most of them would opt to stay right here in the Empire and continue their work for fair wages. I know this because I free my own slaves all the damned time. The bare minimum is that they agree to follow the Amarr religion and then they are given a choice - stay and be given housing and a job, or leave - to go wherever they wish in the cluster, with severance pay, enough for a year. I have an 90% retention rate. The Caldari model offers us a way out into the future. While we are not a typical meritocracy, there have always been elements of this in our composition. We don’t even need to really push for this, just let it happen. The Tash-Murkon-Khanid-Caldari trifecta is going to invoke this change towards a more industrious, streamlined Amarr economy. Slavery must always exist in the Empire, even if it’s merely cultural, it is a significant part of our religion and, I believe, mandated by God. So nothing we ever do or say or outlaw will ever change that. If we stray too far from the path we’ll just get smacked on the nose - it . Enslaving criminals alone would hardly be worse than what the Minmatar do to their criminals. At least they’d be fed and clothed properly. Yet they will always whine about Minmatars being slaves in the Empire. So we could place a moratorium on _just_ Minmatar slaves. I don’t think any Holder in the cluster would actually lose significant amounts of cash if they were forced to replace them with non-Minmatar slaves - even a purely criminal stock. These are no less manageable with vitoc and certain other cutting edge drugs and technologies that are in development. In return for us freeing all of the Minmatar slaves, the Republic must make noticeable efforts towards freeing any Amarr slaves held by Republic citizens - I know they exist. Where the dead may not be returned, the criminal Minmatar citizens responsible must be turned over to the Amarr Empire to do with as we will - including enslaving them in return. In particular the reparations paid to Providence for taking innocent Amarr lives must be enough to make me look at your Republic and go "Hey wow these primitive apes are actually evolving…" Since none of these possibilities actually benefit the Amarr Empire or change anything significantly towards reducing waste and stupidity, I don’t see any reason to actually pursue them at all. Peace is nice, but war is necessary and it builds character, and as well as this it inspires new technology. If you have not been paying attention up until this point, let me spell it out for you, since I do have some experience, having survived four major wars… Our God is not a peaceful God. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/405 "2017-12-08T01:16:52Z")
> [@Akkad\_Akaya](#): > > You never hear them talking about criminal slaves from our own people or even the odd Gallente slave. It’s always about them. Clearly you have not read any posts in this thread. ■■■■ off. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/406 "2017-12-08T01:22:59Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I have stated that the Empire can and should stop illegal slave raids as part of a peace deal. Every other Amarr posting here has stated that. We cannot guarantee that will happen, however, because we are not Emperors or Empresses. I put that caveat in the initial posting; we have no power. > > Yet you take that as proof we, personally, are liars, and that this entire discussion is a sham. No, not at all. You call these raids illegal in the first place, when legality is determined by the Throne. The Throne either knows about it and does nothing, or cannot root out the vast Navy conspiracy. So either the Throne is a)complicit in these raids, or b)incompetent in enforcing its edits. Somehow, I don’t think the Throne and its internal security forces are incompetent. Samira offers an option: that the Khanid are spoofing Imperial Navy IDs. But Imperial Navy officer IDs are found in the wrecks of these ships. Are the Khanid equipping _everyone_ on these ships to pose as the Imperial Navy? Are they just getting lucky that none of their genuine personal effects are ever recovered? Let’s be generous: You’re in denial, Aldrith. I even apologize for calling you a liar. It was judgmental of me and wrong. I let my temper get the better of me. So there. We’ve dispensed with the whole ‘liar’ thing. The issue of _institutional trust_ still needs to be addressed before any good-faith efforts can be productive, or serious. Until we have reason to think we can trust the _Empire_, until you have reason to think you can trust the _Republic_, that lack of trust will undermine anything you want to try to do here. But no, I’m not saying ‘this entire discussion is a sham’. I’m saying: You need to take a step back and address _that_ issue first. So: how do you propose addressing that? See, that’s not ‘this is a sham’, this is ‘how do we get to the step you want to take?’ You were starting on Step 5. You need to do Step 1 first. So let’s try to do Step 1: How do we get to a place where the mistrust can be set aside? Because right now, it can’t. There’s no deal that can be trusted—and that needs to change _first_. ---
**Author:** ![Akkad\_Akaya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/akkad_akaya/32/55799_2.png) [@Akkad\_Akaya](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Akkad_Akaya)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/407 "2017-12-08T01:31:33Z")
Uh-huh… There will never be peace between the Republic and the Empire. I’ve known that since the very beginning of the conflict…you just need more time to figure it out is all. What you really don’t get is that you are _all_ yet slaves - merely the whetstone with which God will continue to sharpen us. First Athra, now this Empyrean Age. We will survive this just as we outlasted the Jove. When the plan has unfolded completely, all of your plans and worming will have positioned you right into the jaws of death itself, whereas we shall rest at the heart of the master. ■■■■ing off now… ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/408 "2017-12-08T01:32:33Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > > > Secular societies are the death of spirituality and Amarr must never go down that road. > > A bit of a correction here, secular societies does not reduce spirituality by default. It just separates government from organized religion, ensuring equal treatment regardless of the faith of the citizens of said society. The Republic is secular, and you know as well as I do that spirituality is hardly lacking among the Tribes Thank you. I keep trying to explain that secularism only separates religion from government, but some people have this strawman version of secularism that they cling too. I suppose when you have a theocracy this separation is seen as an existential threat to your way of life. Which is, I admit, something I have a hard time seeing. Separating one from the other just seems so obvious to me that it’s hard to understand someone _NOT_ understanding it. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/409 "2017-12-08T01:58:26Z")
Ah, I see your response on faith here, Ms. Kernher. I’ll get to it in a bit. You’ve raised some interesting points that I want to address. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Human beings are driven to base impulses and selfish greed. We need to learn how to push aside those feelings and reach for better paths. I partly agree with you here. There are many base impulses that we are driven by, greed is one but so are alturism, empathy and compassion. However, I do agree that self-discipline is necessary to balance these impulses, which were attenunated by natural selection and helped us survive, and none are “evil” in and of themselves. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > When you throw that away, when you let the soul rot, you are left with a society that seeks only material fulfillment - owning the bigger house, the better job, the best trophies with which to proclaim your superiority. I don’t believe in any deity and I don’t seek material fullfillment in the biggest and the best. I like to be comfortable, if possible, not have to worry about having all of my needs met. To say that being a non theistic materialist automatically means that I am greedy denies your observation at the beginning here where you say: > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Some people might be born more good than others, more naturally pure of heart, but most people are not. So, while you qualify your statement by saying, “most are not,” you lead in by acknowledging the diversity of the human condition. In my experience good people tend to be good and bad people tend to be bad no matter what they profess to believe or lack belief in. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > And if your thought here goes to, “But what about all the Amarr ostentatiousness?” Yes, well once again personal belief seems to have little correlation to observed behaviors. People who desire to be good will rationalize their behavior through their beliefs, and same with people who don’t care about being good. Belief seems to be the rationalization, not the cause. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > This is exactly what I am talking about. We need to get back to the root of the faith: humble dedication to God and the Reclaiming of our own souls. Hrm, should Reclaiming then be a personal practice restricted mainly to oneself? Should the idea that Reclaiming is for all supposed to be that, through one’s personal example of Reclaiming at work in their lives and not forcing it onto others, others will be drawn to it as well? Is this the original meaning of Reclaiming? If so, I would have _no_ problem with this! > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Faith, ultimately, is the development of the soul in order to achieve a transcendental wholeness. Are you saying that faith is a soul’s transendental development? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/410 "2017-12-08T01:59:23Z")
> [@Akkad\_Akaya](#): > > Uh-huh… > > There will never be peace between the Republic and the Empire. I’ve known that since the very beginning of the conflict…you just need more time to figure it out is all. What you really don’t get is that you are all yet slaves - merely the whetstone with which God will continue to sharpen us. First Athra, now this Empyrean Age. > > We will survive this just as we outlasted the Jove. When the plan has unfolded completely, all of your plans and worming will have positioned you right into the jaws of death itself, whereas we shall rest at the heart of the master. > > ■■■■ing off now… But _this_ doesn’t get ‘get the hell out of the thread’, Aldrith? ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/411 "2017-12-08T02:04:15Z")
> [@Akkad\_Akaya](#): > > We will survive this just as we outlasted the Jove. As far as we know, the Jove are still around. The Jove were Jove probably before the founding of your little empire on your mote of dust. This canard needs to be shot and sunk. ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/412 "2017-12-08T02:36:59Z")
I went away to the Enclave to bring in some off-world equipment and supplies to help out with some technical faults that were beyond the Clan’s Fabricator Circle to fix with what they have in hand only to return to a threadnaught. And as usual, I am seeing the argument devolving right back to the usual finger-pointing. I am personally not even the slightest bit interested in that whole ‘you are the wrong one you must pay’ that has been keeping both nations at loggerheads for centuries and has been keeping us from getting our people back. So far, all that had achieved is us proving to the Empire that we are unreasoning savages that need to be Reclaimed ASAP and the Empire has proven themselves to be patronising ‘I am your Father’ figure that just can’t stop making the rest of us wanting to bite their ankles right off at the slightest provocation. I say it is time to cool off the heads and start talking about getting back what we want. 1. The Republic wants the Empire to release all the Minmatar slaves. 2. The Empire wants replacements for these slaves. And more converts, traditionally acquired as slaves. Of course, they do. 3. The Republic wants tougher stance against illegal slavers coming from the Amarrian borders. Alleged or true is besides the point. 4. The Empire wants Minmatar extremists to stop bombing their people. Alleged or true is besides the point. For points 1 and 2, I had proposed a complete emancipation deadline decided from studies by CONCORD economists regarding the economic workings of both nations and their estimations of how long it takes for both economic engines to switch gears. This will give us the time to adapt. The Republic will use that time to produce all the jobs that the newly emancipated Minmatar who had decided to join the Tribes will need to feed their families. The Empire will use that time to switch over to a non-slave-reliant labour system without having to suffer a sudden derailing of their economy. How the Republic produce more jobs and how the Empire rework their economic system are to be considered internal matters, though I expect CONCORD to produce recommendations based on their studies and that both nations ought to follow the resulting roadmap produced based on said recommendations. Since the Empire will also need more Reclaimed converts but are not allowed to go enslave new people from outside their borders, I say the Republic can set some heavily policed areas where the missionaries can preach but the Empire will have to accept a strict quota for how many missionaries they can send across the border and the resulting babysitting. I do not trust the Republic to not just bash their heads in, so CONCORD is going to have to be the escort. Points 3 and 4, I propose strict laws against extremist actions and a joint task-force with freedom of movement across the border to enforce said laws. A joint task-force consisting of select members of both the Republic Fleet and the Imperial Navy will serve as a check against each other and a sign of good will. Make sure nobody does anything stupid. I would even go as far as to suggest a third member party consisting of CONCORD enforcers to really make sure nobody bumps each other off while none of us are looking. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/413 "2017-12-08T02:47:51Z")
> [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > And as usual, I am seeing the argument devolving right back to the usual finger-pointing. It’s how they show that they care. ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/414 "2017-12-08T02:54:29Z")
The Jovian Directorate is for all intents and purposes dead. Their seat is taken by the Society of Conscious Thought. Any Jovian from the Directorate is probably gone. Drifters and Sleepers may be Jovians. They also hate our guts. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/415 "2017-12-08T02:58:07Z")
Aside from Sleepers and Drifters, we still don’t actually know the state of the Jove. Even if the Jove are all dead, the canard is that the Amarrian Empire outlasted the Jove, an unsubstantiated claim at best. ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/416 "2017-12-08T04:04:46Z")
If the Joves are all dead right now, then yes, the Amarr Empire has outlasted the Jove by the virtue of still being right here. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/417 "2017-12-08T04:08:19Z")
Yeah, but it’s kind of like saying ‘I outlasted that guy who was born 300 years before me!’ ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/418 "2017-12-08T04:08:59Z")
And that is nothing to be proud about. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/419 "2017-12-08T04:15:06Z")
Sorry, I was celebrating [Arthur’s Day](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV7_abwM2ug)… If the Jove are dead then the Amarr have outasted them? Really? So the Amarr have been in existence longer than the Jove? The Amarr who date their Empire back 6000 years and the Jove who were a society, in space, for 9000 years? Are we talking about the same Jove or are we using different definitions of “outlast?” ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/420 "2017-12-08T04:22:09Z")
I think we are using different intepretations of the term ‘outlast’. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=20) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=22)