# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/441 "2017-12-08T20:55:59Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The issue of institutional trust still needs to be addressed before any good-faith efforts can be productive, or serious. Until we have reason to think we can trust the Empire, until you have reason to think you can trust the Republic, that lack of trust will undermine anything you want to try to do here. > > But no, I’m not saying ‘this entire discussion is a sham’. I’m saying: You need to take a step back and address that issue first. So: how do you propose addressing that? > > See, that’s not ‘this is a sham’, this is ‘how do we get to the step you want to take?’ You were starting on Step 5. You need to do Step 1 first. So let’s try to do Step 1: How do we get to a place where the mistrust can be set aside? Because right now, it can’t. There’s no deal that can be trusted—and that needs to change first. Now why did you not just say all of this in the first place? Now we can actually talk now that I understand where you are coming from. Of course trust is the first issue we must overcome, but the sad fact of the matter is that this is the one thing that is the most difficult to overcome, and the most out of our hands. It will take time, patience, and failing that, deals that are so mutually beneficial it would be stupid to back-stab the other. If one does not believe their trading partner is trustworthy on their own merits, you can craft the deal so that it would be idiocy not to abide by it. But for personal trust, I can personally promise I will never participate in a slave raid, but I cannot control what non-state actors do, just as you have no control over Minmatar Fleet raids into the Empire. In fact, we cannot even control what state actors do either, aside from _propose_ what ought to be done. I recognize reality, but the point of this discussion was to bring _us_ closer together through the talk, not our actual nations, except in the most ambitious of projections. Relax and let’s just have a talk. We are not actually laying out terms to be bound by, we are talking. We should be setting an example for our offical leaders, not destroying the very prospect of dialogue. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You’re in denial, Aldrith. I’ve admitted illegal slave raids happen. I’ve admitted they are wrong. I’ve laid out what we actually have evidence for as to the culprits and motives - dishonest Holders looking to make a quick credit, greedy or ambitious Navy commanders in dereliction of duty, and the occasional provocateur hoping to actually begin a shooting war so that the Reclaiming of old can start afresh. There is no evidence whatsoever of higher officials ordering the raids, or an official policy of any major institution to carry them out. The truth is that these renegade raids are far less frequent than pirate raids in any of the Big Four, and are within manageable levels. If this were not true, Imperial slavers would be far busier than their visibly dying breed would suggest: > Since the inception of CONCORD, the position of slaver has slowly decreased in desirability. The Empire has mostly ceased making slaves of civilian populations, leaving slavers with little to do. The majority of slaves taken in the Empire are now either POWs or criminals.[13] Though still considered a prestigious appointment, the task has little opportunities for profit. Fewer and fewer nobles have taken up the task in recent years, though the Elder Invasion and resumption of hostilities between the Empire and Republic has given slavers hope that they will soon be turned on the populations of occupied worlds. Source: [http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Slavery#Slavers](http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Slavery#Slavers) The institution of slave-taking is in strong decline. The only thing that could _actually_ hope to rekindle it is an intensification of hostilities. We are **STILL** refraining from slaving in occupied Minmatar systems, and while there are certainly raids that still occur, the vast majority of the Imperial Navy and 24th Imperial Crusades abides by the true policy of not taking slaves. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and things could be far worse if we were actually intent on enslaving more. Yet you deny all of this, say I am being naive or dishonest because I do not believe the same conspiracy theory you do. I am not in denial, you are in delusion. > [@Arrendis](#): > > But this doesn’t get ‘get the hell out of the thread’, Aldrith? He did the job for me. Well, for the most part. He doesn’t believe in peace between the Empire and Republic, but he presented his case and left it at that. @Deitra_Vess@Elmund_Egivand I apologize to both of you for not having yet responded to you directly yet. You both have set forth thoughtful and workable pieces worthy of attention, and I have been remiss in not addressing them yet. My next posts will concentrate on what you have said. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/442 "2017-12-08T21:43:23Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > And definitely keep it out of government, our leaders should never govern according to God’s teachings, because some people might not like that.” This, and and other statements, show that you are subscribing to a straw man version of secularism. It’s not to deny God, it’s recognizing that other faith cultures exist in a pluralistic society. Keeping religion out of government ensures that on religious group doesn’t have political power over other faith groups. > Outside of church, you may live an atheist’s life if you choose. How many atheists do you know and how they live their lives? Do you need an atheist friend? Should we be friends? > A theocratic government is one that is enlightened and beholden to moral teachings. I respectufully disagree. > It is part of the Reclaiming, as I mentioned in my list of the key most important aspects of the Reclaiming in an earlier reply to you. Sure, I’ll review it. If it’s the most important aspect of Reclaiming though can it be distilled down to that, or is that my ignorance showing again? > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > > > Are you saying that faith is a soul’s transendental development? > > Yes So if faith is transendental development, why is belief required? What I mean, is it possible to have transendental development, and therefore faith, without any conscious effort on a person’s part? ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/443 "2017-12-08T21:59:04Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > I can’t support this, unrestricted at least. We have people who have been traumatized by the ordeals they have had via your forced indoctrination which would, quite simply be too much. Maybe a designated spot? As for non-government organizations? As has been said already, in a Theocracy there is none. I don’t necessarily see the protection as inconceivable. Completely reasonable and understandable. Looking at it from our perspective as well, the missionaries and adherents would need protection and visibility should they come under attack or be abandoned by their protectors. Things would have to begin slow, small, and gentle. And by begin, I mean this would be the state of affairs for centuries to come. As for NGO status, most Amarr missions in the Gallente Federation have this status with little problems. The Federation regulates and observes them, of course, but what I mean is that the missions should not have direct communication or funding from state officials. Most report to their specific denomination within the church, and are funded by donations granted specifically for their mission, or to that larger church body. We do not intend to implant spies or provocateurs in your territory, and the model followed by the Federation is a decent one. > [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > If this goes both ways I don’t see a major concern. If its one way I cant support it. Cultural exchange coming towards the Empire is a sticky issue, and not one most here are willing to consider. The main hindrance for any sort of trade with the Empire is the concern of cultural contamination from the outside. I personally believe Amarr culture is superior enough to remain steadfast in the face of it, but others are more nervous. I believe if cultural exchange were to be two-way, it would have to begin small, likely in Tash-Murkon space. This seems to be less feasible, however. > [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > I agree, but realistically can’t see some form of quota on immigration not being enacted. On the boundaries of realistic possibility I don’t support it. This is true, and if the emancipation is a slow enough trickle, the Republic’s policy of accepting any Minmatar should still stand well. The details can be hashed out, but the principle is that it should be easy for Minmatar to pass between the Empire and Republic with relative ease, barring security concerns. We obviously do not want terrorists, while you do not want crusading zealots. Those sorts should not bar refugees and hopeful migrants, however. > [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > That goes exactly against my thought of no reparations. Maybe something for the newly emancipated I suppose, but I wouldn’t have the slightest idea of how to enact such a thing. I admit that I worded this poorly. What I meant was more akin to an investment scheme, open to the prospect of return. Charities can also be opened to aid new freedmen in the Empire find their place - I hear Gallente love donating to vulnerable peoples. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/444 "2017-12-09T03:03:14Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > > > "And definitely keep it out of government, our leaders should never govern according to God’s teachings, because some people might not like that.” > > This, and and other statements, show that you are subscribing to a straw man version of secularism. It’s not to deny God, it’s recognizing that other faith cultures exist in a pluralistic society. Keeping religion out of government ensures that on religious group doesn’t have political power over other faith groups. Why is that a good thing? Why would we want a pluralistic society? That is tantamount to declaring that those faiths are of equal validity to Amarr, when they are not. Our duty is to convert followers of those faiths, and we fail that duty by permitting their existence. And it would open the gates for them to convert Amarr _away_ from the Rite. The Rite governs how we live our lives. In all aspects of our lives. It is not voluntary. A person should not get to pick and choose whether they want to follow Amarr or to follow some other faith or no faith at all. Not in Amarr, of all places. > [@](#): > > How many atheists do you know and how they live their lives? Do you need an atheist friend? Should we be friends? I have several atheist friends. > [@](#): > > Sure, I’ll review it. If it’s the most important aspect of Reclaiming though can it be distilled down to that, or is that my ignorance showing again? No, it cannot. It is both. The enemies of the inside have to be controlled, and the enemies of the outside defeated. Reclaim our souls, and Reclaim the souls of others. Betraying this command is not only a betrayal of God, but a betrayal of all those souls we would condemn to damnation through our apathy. > [@](#): > > So if faith is transendental development, why is belief required? What I mean, is it possible to have transendental development, and therefore faith, without any conscious effort on a person’s part? Sure. But the structure of faith, and living in a faithful society, provides greater encouragement and opportunities to cultivate your spirit. Good people can exist in secular or atheist nations, but it is in spite of their environment. They are surrounded by people who put more value in material pursuits instead of spiritual ones. Material societies encourage material pursuits. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/445 "2017-12-09T03:26:07Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > As for NGO status, most Amarr missions in the Gallente Federation have this status with little problems. The Federation regulates and observes them, of course, but what I mean is that the missions should not have direct communication or funding from state officials. Most report to their specific denomination within the church, and are funded by donations granted specifically for their mission, or to that larger church body. I’ll admit, I am not exactly familiar with how it is actually conducted in the Gallante Federation. From my own experience I would simply assume either it was some random zealot or simply put, some homegrown Amarrian convert. Do bare in mind my experience is more less from living on a back woods planet for lack of better words. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Cultural exchange coming towards the Empire is a sticky issue, and not one most here are willing to consider. The main hindrance for any sort of trade with the Empire is the concern of cultural contamination from the outside. I personally believe Amarr culture is superior enough to remain steadfast in the face of it, but others are more nervous. I believe if cultural exchange were to be two-way, it would have to begin small, likely in Tash-Murkon space. This seems to be less feasible, however. Personally I find it funny that such a thing would be a fear of anyone of Matari heritage. Those who are true wouldn’t be phased, if they weren’t then that is what they wish. Thinking they don’t have the option to convert to the Amarr religion would be rather hypocritical. Freedom of choice, the thing we fight for when it comes down to it. If the Amarr were in fact culturally superior, I don’t understand why that would even be a threat. Take that as you will, but know I mean no offense. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > This is true, and if the emancipation is a slow enough trickle, the Republic’s policy of accepting any Minmatar should still stand well. The details can be hashed out, but the principle is that it should be easy for Minmatar to pass between the Empire and Republic with relative ease, barring security concerns. We obviously do not want terrorists, while you do not want crusading zealots. Those sorts should not bar refugees and hopeful migrants, however. Criminality obviously should have a part in this screening. To put it bluntly, The Gallante has their limits on us and we have our limits on them. I don’t see why any other agreements should be different from that of the one with our long time allies. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I admit that I worded this poorly. What I meant was more akin to an investment scheme, open to the prospect of return. Charities can also be opened to aid new freedmen in the Empire find their place - I hear Gallente love donating to vulnerable peoples. I honestly kinda assumed as much. I don’t disagree with the charity and ya, some peoples just need to prove their worth in life with some charity. Whether they are simply trying to hold appearances or not is another story, lets _not_ go there. I do feel we should have some positive effect on our own whether they choose to remain in Amarr territory or not. Holders, not so much unless it truly is simply helping to create work for our kin. Any ideas on how to enforce such a thing? I don’t believe anyones word would suffice on this, even with time. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/446 "2017-12-09T03:33:31Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Now why did you not just say all of this in the first place? I did! In fact, it was precisely the note I closed on in order to give it the strongest note on response: > [@Arrendis](#): > > Without cultural change, I just don’t see how the Empire can ever be trusted to negotiate in good faith. Do you? Do you even see what I’m saying about our perspective in this? **How would you propose we overcome that obstacle?** > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I’ve admitted illegal slave raids happen. I’ve admitted they are wrong. I’ve laid out what we actually have evidence for as to the culprits and motives - dishonest Holders looking to make a quick credit, greedy or ambitious Navy commanders in dereliction of duty, and the occasional provocateur hoping to actually begin a shooting war so that the Reclaiming of old can start afresh. There is no evidence whatsoever of higher officials ordering the raids, or an official policy of any major institution to carry them out. The truth is that these renegade raids are far less frequent than pirate raids in any of the Big Four, and are within manageable levels. I can go into the Republic and get hired to stop a dozen of these raids every single day. I’ll destroy twenty to thirty ships in the process. 10,000 ships a month for _one_ capsuleer is ‘manageable’? That’s just the actions of some dishonest Holders and greedy Navy officers? That’s a _heck_ of a lot of dishonest Holders and greedy officers. Again, it points to either systemic approval of these actions, or system _incompetence_ in enforcing your own laws. That’s why I say you’re in denial. You admit they happen. You admit they’re wrong… but you’re clearly in denial about the scope of the raids and what that scope indicates. But back to the issue of ‘having a talk’. Here’s what needs to happen: End slavery. If the Empire ends slavery, there’ll be no raids to release slaves. There’ll be no need for ‘illegal’ slave raiding. It doesn’t have to be some kind of economic _götterdämmerung_. They’re already working in the Empire, right? _Pay them for the work they do_. Then you don’t have to provide their food, you don’t have to provide their housing. I know this seems crazy, but… it’ll actually _grow_ your economy. If I pay you 50 ISK for food, that’s 50 ISK of economic activity. It’s a single 50 ISK transaction that gets taxed. If I page you 50 ISK for work, and you pay Samira 50 ISK for food, that’s 100 ISK of economic activity, and 2 transactions that each get taxed. Now scale it up by 11 trillion times. This should be a no-brainer. Do that. It’s win-win. You instantly defuse every Mizhara out there, and grow your economy at the same time. We get our people freed, and the slave raids from the Imperial Navy end. Then strive to set an example of being people whose faith and morality people want to _emulate_. Cuz I’ll tell you right now, Samira’s a much better representative for your faith than your wife is. Sami doesn’t use her faith as a means to order people around and control their lives. Heck, she barely controls her _cats_. She just tries to be a good person and live as she believes God wants her to live. And yeah, that means she tries converting people. Maybe she isn’t always successful, but you know what? She’s willing to _respect_ a ‘no’, even if she doesn’t like it. When it happens, the person she gets mad at is herself. She gets demonstrably upset about failing the person she’s talking to. And that’s just _adorable_. She doesn’t turn her back on the person she thinks is errant, either. She keeps talking to them and letting them see her devotion and faith, without being pushy about it. That makes people _want_ to say ‘yes’. As for… > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > As for NGO status, most Amarr missions in the Gallente Federation have this status with little problems. The Federation regulates and observes them, of course, but what I mean is that the missions should not have direct communication or funding from state officials. Most report to their specific denomination within the church, and are funded by donations granted specifically for their mission, or to that larger church body. They take their ultimate direction from the Throne. Therefore, they are agents of the Imperial Throne. Just because they’ve got layers of middle-management in there doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 11:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/447 "2017-12-09T11:07:10Z")
A solution to the economic issues of emancipation of Minmatar slaves: The Takmahl Mass Cloning Device can be employed to address the economic issues. By rapid production of Ealurian and other slaves to take the place of the emancipated Minmatar, the labour shortage is easily addressed. This allows the longer-term reforms to be conducted without undue stress on the economy that would put the success of the reforms at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/448 "2017-12-09T15:45:59Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Why is that a good thing? Why would we want a pluralistic society? Perhaps the Amarr don’t desire this and I’m not really wishing to force this on your society. A pluralistic society could offer advantages that might be worth considering. Multiple points of view on solving a problem come to mind. Enriching one’s cultural experiences by interacting with people who have different ways of doing things. I won’t say there aren’t disadvantages though. Power struggles between the different groups aren’t uncommon and some groups end up disadvantaged as a result. I would argue that in some ways the Amarr are already pluralistic, even if not in any official sense. The Amarr effort to homogenize culture and faith had been largely successful, I will grant. Don’t you think that all of those cultures you absorb and assimilate would also have an effect on your culture and faith as well? How many positive ideas that are now enshrined in Amarr originally came from the races you have enslaved? I also understand that power struggles between different groups aren’t new to the Amarr either. > A person should not get to pick and choose whether they want to follow Amarr or to follow some other faith or no faith at all. Not in Amarr, of all places. But there are examples where you do just that, within Amarr as well. Perhaps not with citizens, or among your slaves, but with people from the other empires. It might be for practical reasons, but you do allow it to some extent and in some areas. > I have several atheist friends. I’m glad to hear that. We’re not enemies, you realize? You and I, I mean. We both just have strong opinions that just happen to be opposing. > No, it cannot. It is both. The enemies of the inside have to be controlled, and the enemies of the outside defeated. This is some very binary thinking. Does my _NOT_ being Amarr make me your enemy by default? At least according to Amarrian scriptures? I’ll need to review your points about Reclaiming before I comment further on it. > Sure. But the structure of faith, and living in a faithful society, provides greater encouragement and opportunities to cultivate your spirit. Good people can exist in secular or atheist nations, but it is in spite of their environment. They are surrounded by people who put more value in material pursuits instead of spiritual ones. Material societies encourage material pursuits. I’m hearing faith requires a community to reinforce it otherwise people will only focus on materialism. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/449 "2017-12-09T18:08:33Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Perhaps the Amarr don’t desire this and I’m not really wishing to force this on your society. A pluralistic society could offer advantages that might be worth considering. Multiple points of view on solving a problem come to mind. Enriching one’s cultural experiences by interacting with people who have different ways of doing things. I won’t say there aren’t disadvantages though. Power struggles between the different groups aren’t uncommon and some groups end up disadvantaged as a result. > > I would argue that in some ways the Amarr are already pluralistic, even if not in any official sense. The Amarr effort to homogenize culture and faith had been largely successful, I will grant. Don’t you think that all of those cultures you absorb and assimilate would also have an effect on your culture and faith as well? How many positive ideas that are now enshrined in Amarr originally came from the races you have enslaved? We have the largest population in New Eden. We have plenty of different points of view on solving problems. Some aspects of other cultures have been assimilated, yes. _When_ they don’t disrupt what it means to be Amarr. But there are many, many things that _are_ dangerous, which can’t be allowed to influence Amarr. As I have said, part of the purpose of slavery was as a system for isolating large numbers of conquered peoples and eliminating the parts of their cultures that were incompatible with Amarr before integration into Amarrian society. > [@](#): > > But there are examples where you do just that, within Amarr as well. Perhaps not with citizens, or among your slaves, but with people from the other empires. It might be for practical reasons, but you do allow it to some extent and in some areas. Those people have to convert to the Rite if they intend to become Amarr citizens. And when they are just temporary visitors, they are not permitted to go around blatantly expressing their views. Yes, it is allowed to some extent for the practical concerns of an interstellar society, but it is hardly desirable. Non-Amarr in Amarr are monitored closely to make sure they are not causing dissension with their divergent customs. > [@](#): > > I’m glad to hear that. We’re not enemies, you realize? You and I, I mean. We both just have strong opinions that just happen to be opposing. > [@](#): > > This is some very binary thinking. Does my _NOT_ being Amarr make me your enemy by default? At least according to Amarrian scriptures? Well, we are politically and religiously opposed. So yes, we are enemies by default. And as long as you are not Amarr, I am obligated to try and Reclaim you. Based on the way our discussions have gone so far, I’m clearly not succeeding or likely to succeed at that, but it’s still my duty. But I do not hate you, or wish violence on you, if that is what you’re concerned about. > [@](#): > > I’m hearing faith requires a community to reinforce it otherwise people will only focus on materialism. Is that correct? In many cases, yes. I’m not going to say always, but your environment absolutely influences how you develop as a person. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/450 "2017-12-09T19:13:58Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > We have the largest population in New Eden. We have plenty of different points of view on solving problems. Granted, but they’re still mostly degrees of difference of the main Amarr viewpoint. Am I correct? > Those people have to convert to the Rite if they intend to become Amarr citizens. And when they are just temporary visitors, they are not permitted to go around blatantly expressing their views. Yes, it is allowed to some extent for the practical concerns of an interstellar society, but it is hardly desirable. Non-Amarr in Amarr are monitored closely to make sure they are not causing dissension with their divergent customs. Interesting. Thanks for the clarification. > But I do not hate you, or wish violence on you, if that is what you’re concerned about. To a small degree, maybe? It mostly that it has been brought to my attention that some people think I might be considering violence against your empire. I just want to assure you that I’m not. > In many cases, yes. I’m not going to say always, but your environment absolutely influences how you develop as a person. Oh yes, I agree that environment plays a significant role in development. Hrm, so if faith is a development toward transcendence and environment affects development, how is faith related to belief? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/451 "2017-12-09T20:52:15Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I just want to assure you that I’m not. I doubt anyone in Amarr is much worried about one capsuleer’s activities against the Empire… or even a thousand. Much as we might like to think otherwise, we’re just not that all-powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/452 "2017-12-09T21:02:09Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Much as we might like to think otherwise, we’re just not that all-powerful. Yeah, I may have in inflated ego, but that’s _NOT_ what I was thinking. 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/453 "2017-12-09T23:00:16Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Granted, but they’re still mostly degrees of difference of the main Amarr viewpoint. Am I correct? Maybe. But I see as many different views on solving problems between different people in Amarr, as I do between Amarr and members of other nations. The faith influences how we respond to our world, certainly. But I do not believe we are somehow _lacking_ in capacity to respond appreciably to problems that we face. > [@](#): > > Oh yes, I agree that environment plays a significant role in development. Hrm, so if faith is a development toward transcendence and environment affects development, how is faith related to belief? I don’t know if I understand this question. But faith as I am talking about it here is in the sense of a religion. Something that directs and guides how a person lives their life and what they can or should do to better themselves. Anyone can believe in something, but a faith - as in, a religion - is not just belief, it is also practice. In any case, I believe that we are getting rather off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/454 "2017-12-09T23:34:42Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > In any case, I believe that we are getting rather off-topic. Fair enough, Ms Kernher. Thank you for indulging me and my curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/455 "2017-12-12T08:09:02Z")
> [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > And as usual, I am seeing the argument devolving right back to the usual finger-pointing. Hopefully we’ve stymied that route for now. Welcome back to the conversation, some days late, I admit. > [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > I am personally not even the slightest bit interested in that whole ‘you are the wrong one you must pay’ that has been keeping both nations at loggerheads for centuries and has been keeping us from getting our people back. So far, all that had achieved is us proving to the Empire that we are unreasoning savages that need to be Reclaimed ASAP and the Empire has proven themselves to be patronising ‘I am your Father’ figure that just can’t stop making the rest of us wanting to bite their ankles right off at the slightest provocation. This is exactly the attitude that both sides must take if we are to stop this from degrading into a true war again. Failing humility of our own wrongs and forgiveness for the wrongs of others, realizing exactly what you have stated can and will suffice. At a certain point, recognizing the futility of holding on to these grudges can be just as good as reconciliation. Indeed, it is often the first step. > [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > For points 1 and 2, I had proposed a complete emancipation deadline decided from studies by CONCORD economists regarding the economic workings of both nations and their estimations of how long it takes for both economic engines to switch gears. This will give us the time to adapt. The Republic will use that time to produce all the jobs that the newly emancipated Minmatar who had decided to join the Tribes will need to feed their families. The Empire will use that time to switch over to a non-slave-reliant labour system without having to suffer a sudden derailing of their economy. How the Republic produce more jobs and how the Empire rework their economic system are to be considered internal matters, though I expect CONCORD to produce recommendations based on their studies and that both nations ought to follow the resulting roadmap produced based on said recommendations. A reasonable plan, though it will require CONCORD to be more active than it has been in the past, and for both of our nations to accept its increased role. Distrust in CONCORD seems to be running high in many places in the cluster. > [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > Since the Empire will also need more Reclaimed converts but are not allowed to go enslave new people from outside their borders, I say the Republic can set some heavily policed areas where the missionaries can preach but the Empire will have to accept a strict quota for how many missionaries they can send across the border and the resulting babysitting. I do not trust the Republic to not just bash their heads in, so CONCORD is going to have to be the escort. Fully agreed here, though the door should be open for expansion of missionary rights and freedoms when tensions die down. > [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > Points 3 and 4, I propose strict laws against extremist actions and a joint task-force with freedom of movement across the border to enforce said laws. A joint task-force consisting of select members of both the Republic Fleet and the Imperial Navy will serve as a check against each other and a sign of good will. Make sure nobody does anything stupid. I would even go as far as to suggest a third member party consisting of CONCORD enforcers to really make sure nobody bumps each other off while none of us are looking. Now, this will be the most tricky to pull off. I am not entirely convinced our militiaries will be capable of cooperating with one another until after at least a few decades of de-escalation and reconciliation. CONCORD, again, will have to take the lead here in a very concrete manner. Overall, your grasp of the situation is accurate and your suggestions within reason and fairness. I applaud your words. One interesting thought I had since this thread died down a bit… If tensions with the Minmatar and Gallente were alleviated, and our military and slavers become less occupied with them, the Empire could redirect armed Reclaiming efforts towards groups that truly deserve destruction and enslavement: the pirate ‘nations’. With their increased power and aggression, I see it as a prime opportunity for House Sarum and the other expansionist minds in the Empire to bring back the Reclaiming of old in a more productive and agreeable way. We should be serving the cluster at large with our efforts, rather than threatening it. That could mean all-out wars of Reclaiming on the Angel Cartel, Serpentis Corporation, and Guristas, while campaigns of extermination should be prosecuted against Sansha’s Nation and the Blood Raiders. Not all at the same time, per say, but the Empire still has many enemies to turn its attention to even if we turn away from the Republic and Federation. I can think of no better way to bring the cluster together and improve the Empire’s standing and reputation with the civilized peoples than to show what the Reclaiming is really about - turning the wicked into the good, and destroying the abominable and unclean. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/456 "2017-12-12T13:52:48Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Now, this will be the most tricky to pull off. I am not entirely convinced our militiaries will be capable of cooperating with one another until after at least a few decades of de-escalation and reconciliation. Namas, Mr Shutaq. I would like to interject here. Military that have spent decades of more fighting each other can often coordinate with each other very well. Trust issues aside, this shouldn’t be surprising as both sides have been studying the other and are quite familiar with each other’s precedures and practices. If a lasting peace can be found then cooperation between the armed forces may be one of the easier tasks. > I see it as a prime opportunity for House Sarum and the other expansionist minds in the Empire to bring back the Reclaiming of old in a more productive and agreeable way. We should be serving the cluster at large with our efforts, rather than threatening it. I understand that some houses within your empire oppose this interpretation of the Reclaiming. What is the plan to get those other houses to buy into this line of thought? If this is tipping your hand to your opposition then don’t feel the need to answer, I just would like to know that you’ve got one. Perhaps someday the Amarr will be called revashokad by some no more, and hopefully soon. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/457 "2017-12-12T14:24:03Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > We should be serving the cluster at large with our efforts, rather than threatening it. That could mean all-out wars of Reclaiming on the Angel Cartel, Serpentis Corporation, and Guristas, while campaigns of extermination should be prosecuted against Sansha’s Nation and the Blood Raiders. Not all at the same time, per say, but the Empire still has many enemies to turn its attention to even if we turn away from the Republic and Federation. > > I can think of no better way to bring the cluster together and improve the Empire’s standing and reputation with the civilized peoples of the cluster than to show what the Reclaiming is really about - turning the wicked into the good, and destroying the abominable and unclean. Just for the sake of clarity, are you really proposing the Amarr religion as a form of capital punishment for piracy? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/458 "2017-12-12T14:58:16Z")
If the Empire removes that ‘intergenerational’ part of their slavery of the interstellar criminal elements and use it as a kind of penal punishment mixed in with what is essentially a spiritually-charged corrective action so as to ensure that they can operate as productive, though devout, members of society after the completion of sentence (which I expect is dependant on how spiritually awakened and repentant they get as they serve their sentence), I am not opposed to it. Also, CONCORD marketed themselves as an interstellar neutral peacekeeper organisation, here to mediate, guide and keep us from destroying ourselves. I say it’s time for them to do exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/459 "2017-12-12T20:59:35Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > Just for the sake of clarity, are you really proposing the Amarr religion as a form of capital punishment for piracy? No, no, capital punishment usually means death. This is a criminal reform policy. With lasers and glaive collars. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/460 "2017-12-12T21:05:10Z")
and slavery usually is to death, otherwise it would be imprisonment, not a readjustment of ones morals and beliefs. Haven’t said whether I agreed or disagreed (still making sure its an actual proposal since I would expect someone like myself, miz, or ect to propose your religion as a punishment.) Just seems odd hearing an idea like that from you. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=22) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=24)