# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/521 "2017-12-17T05:03:33Z")
> [@Andreus\_Ixiris](#): > > Their culture, language, history and even their genetic makeup has been irrevocably altered by unprovoked action upon the part of the Empire. It is incumbent upon the Amarr not only to free their slaves but to make efforts to reverse the centuries of cultural and biological tampering they’ve inflicted. > [@](#): > > **ir·rev·o·ca·ble** > əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/Submit > adjective > not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final. So no, it’s not incumbent upon the Amarr to reverse _irrevocable_ changes. If they could do that, the changes wouldn’t be. Pedantry aside, as much as I’d like to _see_ reparations, if monetary payments that will _never_ be enough become an obstacle to emancipation, screw the money. There are concessions we must never make, but the ability to demand a few hundred trillion more ISK isn’t among them. That’s why my objection to ‘isn’t that enough?’ wasn’t any kind of price tag, but the simple acknowledgement that no, it can _never_ be ‘enough’, so attempting to approach the matter as one of mere economic wrangling is futile and foolish. We need to be able to trust them to honor whatever agreement they might strike. If we can’t, then we need the repercussions of violating that agreement to fall immediately, and heavily, without the Empire having the ability to deflect or avoid them. Then, even if we can’t trust _them_… we can trust the blade that hangs above their necks. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/522 "2017-12-17T12:03:26Z")
> [@Andreus\_Ixiris](#): > > exploitation of their sovereign territory’s natural resources So that’d be Matar, Arzad, and whichever other solar system it was, that the Minmatar had colonised before the first contact with the Amarr Empire. The other planets in what is now Republic space were ofc, unclaimed by anyone until much later. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/523 "2017-12-17T16:02:53Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > So that’d be Matar, Arzad, You mean Starkman. ---
**Author:** ![Andreus\_Ixiris](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andreus_ixiris/32/498273_2.png) [@Andreus\_Ixiris](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andreus_Ixiris)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 7:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/524 "2017-12-18T07:26:12Z")
Your pendatic and vaccuous commentary is as unwelcome here as it is on every thread, Valerie. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/525 "2017-12-18T12:09:48Z")
> [@Andreus\_Ixiris](#): > > Your pendatic and vaccuous commentary is as unwelcome here as it is on every thread, Valerie. \*pedantic \*vacuous 3/10 must try harder. ---
**Author:** ![Aergri\_Evingod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aergri_evingod/32/116437_2.png) [@Aergri\_Evingod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aergri_Evingod)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/526 "2017-12-18T12:24:54Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > > [@Andreus\_Ixiris](#): > > > > Your pendatic and vaccuous commentary is as unwelcome here as it is on every thread, Valerie. > > \*pedantic > \*vacuous > > 3/10 must try harder. correcting misspelling is so much more informative and creative than an actual counter argumentation. besides its such a rare genetical trait that your bloodline must feel honoured to be blessed with this uncommon ability. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/527 "2017-12-18T12:45:01Z")
> [@Andreus\_Ixiris](#): > > Reparations are absolutely required. Prior to meeting the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar were confined to 3 solar systems. Now they own 280 solar systems & the resources contained therein. Easily enough reparations already been paid there. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/528 "2017-12-18T14:55:13Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > Prior to meeting the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar were confined to 3 solar systems. > > Now they own 280 solar systems & the resources contained therein. > > Easily enough reparations already been paid there. > [@](#): > > **rep·a·ra·tion** > ˌrepəˈrāSH(ə)n > _noun_ > the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged. Prior to the unprovoked attack on the Minmatar Empire by the Amarr, we had expanded to 3 solar systems, and would likely have expanded further as needed. None of the star systems the Republic controls now were _given_ to them by the Empire. There was no admission of wrongs done upon the Matari people. There was no ‘help’ given by the ceding of those systems. They were won with blood, and do not constitute reparations. 2/10: You are an embarrassment to pedantry itself. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/529 "2017-12-18T15:08:20Z")
Actually, she’s right, here. These planets _have_ been given to the Republic. Heideran acknowledged the Republic’s sovereignty during the negotiations to establish CONCORD. That entailed ceding those systems, regardless of their level of development, to the Republic. You might consider that a less-than-valuable prize seeing as how the Republic already held those systems by conquest, so the Empire formally handing over sovereignty was just a matter of paperwork, but the fact that the Empire outright ceded those worlds means that in all international diplomacy since CONCORD’s founding, the demand for the return of former Imperial worlds is not on the table – which has enhanced the Republic’s bargaining position far beyond what it would have had if the Empire had refused to ever recognize it as anything more than a rebellious territory. Now, this is strictly politics here. The Reclaiming obviously leaves the spiritual claim (as it is on Caldari, Gallente, and all other space as well), but by interstellar policies, the Empire gave that territory to the Republic. And it’s not likely to offer much more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/530 "2017-12-18T15:13:40Z")
Then they’ll just have to be _convinced_. One way or another. There’s quite simply no way around it. The Empire owes a debt greater than can ever be repaid, and interest accrues for every single day they hold even a single one of our blood. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/531 "2017-12-18T15:15:39Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > a debt greater than can ever be repaid So, if it can’t be repaid, then… there’s no choice but to write it off. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/532 "2017-12-18T15:49:32Z")
Acknowledging the truth is not the same as giving them away before we already held them. That is not reparations, it is simply accepting what _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/533 "2017-12-18T15:54:50Z")
Or to negotiate an adjusted settlement. Starting with the emancipation of all slaves, and extending citizenship\* and employment within the Empire to those who desire it. - In so much as ‘citizenship’ can exist in a society where the population is held to have privileges granted by the sovereign, not rights derived from nature. ‘Subjecthood’ is more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/534 "2017-12-18T16:02:08Z")
Okay, you all need to pick a definition for reparations. Because the definition _I_ had been seeing from you was of reparations as something _separate_ from the slavery issue. Something you were claiming needed to be provided _in addition_ to emancipation. ---
**Author:** ![Mitara\_Newelle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mitara_newelle/32/384431_2.png) [@Mitara\_Newelle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mitara_Newelle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/535 "2017-12-18T16:03:26Z")
> [@Elmund\_Egivand](#): > > You are thinking of power in absolutes, rather than power as delegated responsibilities. This may be the disconnect, Mr Egivard, as these are vastly different things. I am speaking of power(not absolute as Ms Jenneth pointed out, but real power nonetheless), Del’Thul and Arrendis are speaking of delegated responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/536 "2017-12-18T16:05:16Z")
Nobody’s saying emancipation would fully repay the debt the Empire has incurred. But it’s a start. > [@Mitara\_Newelle](#): > > This may be the disconnect, Mr Egivard, as these are vastly different things. I am speaking of power(not absolute as Ms Jenneth pointed out, but real power nonetheless), Del’Thul and Arrendis are speaking of delegated responsibilities. If I can have you fired, that’s power. It doesn’t matter if I can have you fired because I have a book from God that says I can have you fired, or if I can have you fired because I have a book from HR that says I can have you fired. I can have you fired. ETA: And that holds true whether we’re talking about having you fired, having you imprisoned, or having you executed. On a societal level, _all_ power is delegated responsibility. After all, isn’t your own authority delegated by God, through the Throne and House Sarum? ---
**Author:** ![Mitara\_Newelle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mitara_newelle/32/384431_2.png) [@Mitara\_Newelle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mitara_Newelle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/537 "2017-12-18T16:13:31Z")
Yes, but the difference, I believe, between the examples you and Del’Thul have given is the parties involved are ‘equals.’ My subjects are not my equals, I am not the equal of His Majesty Arrach Sarum, he is not the equal of Her Holiness Empress Catiz I, and she is not the equal of God. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/538 "2017-12-18T16:21:24Z")
Other than the issues of ‘one of these things is an imaginary friend and another is a carbon copy of a dead person and we keep making more copies’… yes, you are all equal. A bullet to the brain kills everyone in that list except, you know, the imaginary one. Do you enjoy the same privileges and opportunities? No, of course not. Neither do the people in a corporation. Do you really think the schlub in the stock room, even if he owns shares of the corp, makes the same money the CEO does? Do you think that wage disparity doesn’t come with a commensurate difference in lifestyle? Now, you can tell yourself from a socio-political standpoint that no, of course the people beneath you aren’t the equals of you, but let’s look at how society itself _really_ feels about that: Can you name me a single deceased slave, holder, Heir, or Sovereign (because obviously, the living ones are alive) that has not been _replaced_ when they died? Any one of them society actually found _irreplaceable_? Wealth and privilege are not evidence that you’re anything special. Only that you’ve got money and privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pieter_tuulinen/32/155371_2.png) [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pieter_Tuulinen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/539 "2017-12-18T18:37:41Z")
Pick whichever shamaness seems to have the most authority. Flirt with. It worked with Kyllsa. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/540 "2017-12-18T19:19:50Z")
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