# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1345 "2018-04-15T06:24:55Z")
A minor correction. The Reclamation never completely stops. It occurs in every interaction between the faithful and the infidels to the Lord. Even if we are using the special definition I think you are using, that also has not been halted completely. The 24th Imperial Crusade is currently the active force of the Reclamation. We do acquire slaves. I am licensed to do so, in fact. These slaves are taken in battle from ships enrolled in the warzone, largely, who would otherwise probably die. This is the way in which the Reclamation is carried out, through conquest and enslavement. Far from being ashamed of this, we are proud of this. The purpose of the enslavement is not to cause suffering, but to show very fallen peoples the way of righteousness. It is important to note that slavery is not the _only_ path to salvation via the Reclamation. The Reclamation also allows for guidance by example, when an individual or a people are suitable for this, meaning they are not outright hostile to Amarr. This is exactly how the Khanid became the first reclaimed people, when we aided the Amarr willingly on Athra (modern-day Amarr Prime.) We Khanid have influenced the Caldari for generations now in this same way, and we have also been influenced by the Caldari. My father often uses Caldari influenced architecture. In my day to day life in the 24th Imperial Crusade, I can assure you, I see the Reclamation is alive every day, and I thank the Lord for it, for the strength to protect our righteous and hard working Caldari friends, to protect and serve the Empress, and to be surrounded by so many traditional True Amarr who guide me in turn. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 7:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1346 "2018-04-15T07:55:56Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Democracy is simply mob rule. Direct democracy perhaps, but few member-states actually practice it. The Federal constitution only requires the right to political participation under the articles of citizenship: how individual member-states define political participation remains the prerogative of that member-state. However to answer your flawed conception of what has power and influence within the Gallente Federation, it is not Unruly Mobs, but its constituent states. An example of this would be issues related to Caldari Prime, where despite repeated calls by the Caldari State for the Federal government to “do something” the actual options remain limited insofar as they impact the states’ rights of those Federal states within Luminaire. A situation that exists due to the devolvement of FedGov powers to member-states in the Further Federation Act as a direct response to the Ultranationalist coup d’tat and subsequent regime of Luc Duvailer. The very definition of “Federation” which a quick galnet search would describe as: federation fɛdəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/ noun noun: federation; plural noun: federations a group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs. Also holds true for the Gallente Federation. Within the Gallente Federation, the independence of its constituent member-states is jealously guarded which leads to almost constant challenges to the authority of FedGov and its policies. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 11:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1347 "2018-04-15T11:26:02Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > the independence of its constituent member-states is jealously guarded Unless you’re like, Intaki, and want _actual_ independence, in which case it’s fiercely denied. Come to think of it, wasn’t that the crux of the entire Caldari/Gallente conflict to begin with? The independence of the Caldari Megacorps? How’d that one work out? Remember, we _tried_ Gallente-style democracy. I stand by my description of naked ‘majority rule’. ---
**Author:** ![Lursan\_Ayin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lursan_ayin/32/66108_2.png) [@Lursan\_Ayin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lursan_Ayin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1348 "2018-04-15T13:41:54Z")
It depends on interpretation. As part of the nomadic clergy, I can tell you that our standard practice is that it comes in a cycle. The people of Amarr redeem themselves to our Lord, and begin the Reclaiming anew. This happened after apocalypse, and after the Revelation of God. The Scriptures tell us how to reclaim, and how to act towards heresy and disbelief. _“There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe.”_ - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming, 25:10. The Scriptures also encourage the capture and enslavement of those nonbelievers that fight back against us, and it has been argued repeatedly whether the slaving raids count as that. In my personal belief, as well as the belief of the Holy Jamyl, enslavement is only legal on crusade and against those that defile our borders with violence, which is exactly what you are doing. However, raiding Matari space and worlds to enslave innocents who are simply ignorant or have not been opened to the faith is an entirely different story, as that violates our Law. We are to convert at first, and to only destroy when necessary, as the Scriptures say _" From on high, they came with wisdom and mercy. They delivered greatness to the people. But when provoked, their wroth was immutable."_ - The Scriptures, Book of Missions, 45:3 ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1349 "2018-04-15T15:21:52Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > Probably only in Minmatar majority polities, most other people in the Federation actually value civilization. So are you saying the Matari people are less civilized than the Gallante people? Way to make my contract with the State seem more justified. Some ally. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1350 "2018-04-15T15:43:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Unless you’re like, Intaki, and want actual independence, in which case it’s fiercely denied. Can you cite where an Intaki member-state government has filed for an actual motion of secession or exit from the Federation, and such motion having been denied? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Come to think of it, wasn’t that the crux of the entire Caldari/Gallente conflict to begin with? The independence of the Caldari Megacorps? How’d that one work out? Recognition of the Caldari State as a sovereign entity under the YC12 Armistice, I would say. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Remember, we tried Gallente-style democracy. I stand by my description of naked ‘majority rule’. Yes, the Republic tried a unicameral parliamentary system which became dysfunctional due to the impositions of Tribal loyalties and special interests in the legislative process. Just because the Minmatar might have a preference for mob rule in their own governance does not mean it functions as such with those who have centuries of experience in effective democratic government. > [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > Way to make my contract with the State seem more justified. Some ally. Your particular rationale for being a shill really is not my concern. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1351 "2018-04-15T15:45:59Z")
> [@Lursan\_Ayin](#): > > The Scriptures tell us how to reclaim, and how to act towards heresy and disbelief. “There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe.” - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming, 25:10. Oh, good, so now that we all have access to your libraries of Scriptures, if we still find there to be no credible evidence for the existence of _your_ God, _then_ we’re to be made war upon? Tell me: have you explained this one to the Caldari? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1352 "2018-04-15T15:50:19Z")
You _do_ love to keep digging in deeper in that hole you’ve got, don’t you? Seriously, Deitra, how do we convince the politicians that a Minmatar/Caldari alignment that leaves the two oppressive, expansionist powers to glare at one another while the people who want to be left alone give them _all_ the bird is the smart way to go here? ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1353 "2018-04-15T15:56:49Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > Your particular rationale for being a shill really is not my concern. At one point your people were truly a friend and ally to ours. Those people I speak of were your ancestors. **THEY** , at least to us were truly living up to the beliefs you prattle on about today. We get to the modern Gallante, our culture is a fashion statement, we face such idiotic statements like you have now made twice. Do you really value your own words? Do you not understand such idiocy is pushing your allies away? My contract is largely based on who attacked and who defended my PMC’s corporate assets while enlisted with the TLF, your people’s allied militia, while operating in Black Rise. Let that sink in. Your allies find more common ground with your enemy. Do continue to spit on your forefathers, I’m sure your people must have a kink for that or something. Glory to the State, May the Republic never fall ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1354 "2018-04-15T16:00:27Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Seriously, Deitra, how do we convince the politicians that a Minmatar/Caldari alignment that leaves the two oppressive, expansionist powers to glare at one another while the people who want to be left alone give them all the bird is the smart way to go here? I know right? I’d hope more positive relations would bring us closer but it hasn’t worked in the past if I’m not mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1355 "2018-04-15T16:03:30Z")
Gods and spirits but why are you all bothering to even respond to trolls like Kim-baka and the rest? They’re not in this thread to offer constructive ideas. They simply wish to satisfy their perverse love of arguing and pushing their own biased agendas. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1356 "2018-04-15T16:07:01Z")
Hopefully without echoing the sentiment of Diana Kim, I won’t let an outsider bastardize a thread about peace between our enemy and our people. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1357 "2018-04-15T16:20:23Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > Your particular rationale for being a shill really is not my concern. Mr. Vausienne, with apologies, I think you’re re-crossing (or, respectfully, re-re-re-re-re-crossing) a line you indicated you wanted to avoid. Ms. Kim is not a typical Caldari partisan; her views are … personal, and intense. Ms. Vess, though also a little atypical, is more the kind of debater you indicated you wanted to become, yourself. Taking a cheap shot at her with nose in the air does her little harm, and you no good-- you come off simultaneously arrogant/elitist and willfully ignorant. This’ll turn off basically everybody. You’re now actively hurting your chances of becoming what you aspire to. I hope you can do better. If you can’t, you might have some trouble improving your standing among people who don’t already agree with you about almost everything. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1358 "2018-04-15T16:26:28Z")
Understandably he is probably not familiar with me. We’ve never really talked. @Rafal_Vausienne, before we continue to get off on the wrong foot, Lets **both** calm down and actually have a discussion. We both stand a chance to learn something. No harm, no foul. ---
**Author:** ![Lursan\_Ayin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lursan_ayin/32/66108_2.png) [@Lursan\_Ayin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lursan_Ayin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1359 "2018-04-15T16:54:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Oh, good, so now that we all have access to your libraries of Scriptures, if we still find there to be no credible evidence for the existence of your God, then we’re to be made war upon? Said the Matari to the Amarrian. Ironic that a race who places such a strong emphasis on their spirituality immediately becomes secular the moment they face the Amarrian Faith. Tell me, please, did your tattoos tell you this would be your future? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1360 "2018-04-15T17:01:15Z")
First off, I’m not personally very spiritual, and that’s a fact I’ve kept secret from exactly nobody. Feel free to look back on my posting history. Second, saying ‘we don’t believe in _your_ version of spirituality’ isn’t secular. But please, feel free to take another crack at scathing wit before Sami gets done yelling at me (HI, SAMI!). ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1361 "2018-04-15T17:18:18Z")
> [@Lursan\_Ayin](#): > > Ironic that a race who places such a strong emphasis on their spirituality immediately becomes secular the moment they face the Amarrian Faith. Much like the rest of humanity, spirituality among Minmatar varies wildly from person to person. For many, their day to day lives might have no spiritual influence whatsoever. Spiritual education and power is firmly in the hands of the Clan Shamans. They keep the knowledge of the spirits and pass it down through the generations. They know the rites and rituals for everything from Voluvals to funerals, and most people will never need their services more than three or four times in their lives. There is a massive difference between spirituality and religion. > [@Lursan\_Ayin](#): > > Tell me, please, did your tattoos tell you this would be your future? That’s not how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1362 "2018-04-15T17:19:12Z")
How the hell is this thread still going? Some clarifications on the Reclaiming. 1. The Reclaiming _does not end_. It is an eternal battle inside every single Amarrian faithful _as well_ as the pursuit to bring the faithless outside the Empire to God. The Reclaiming should not be spoken of only in the context of war against outsiders, as that is only one part of it. Even in the absence of war, the Reclaiming is ongoing: Your interactions with the faithless should always be conducted in a manner in which they can be encouraged to enter the faith. 2. CONCORD laws, signed and agreed to by the Emperor (and thus they are Imperial laws as well), dictate that we are not permitted to engage in the enslavement of members of non-Amarrian CONCORD signatories. Those same laws _do_ permit the enslavement of prisoners of war, but this is the only legal means by which we can claim slaves from other nations currently. 3. Any slave raids of non-combatants is against current CONCORD and Imperial law. Any such raids occurring are criminal actions, and evidence of corruption if they are being facilitated by Imperial agencies. 4. Only specific titles grant authority to enslave, such as Holders and other religious officials. While some in the Crusade have such authority, most don’t. At best, prisoners of war can be transferred to the custody of someone that does. 5. Yes, children are punished for the sins of their ancestors, else the institution of slavery would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1363 "2018-04-15T17:19:17Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > Gods and spirits but why are you all bothering to even respond to trolls like Kim-baka and the rest? They’re not in this thread to offer constructive ideas. They simply wish to satisfy their perverse love of arguing and pushing their own biased agendas. Oh, ladies and gentlemen! Now you have another example of typical Minmatar and why you don’t really should waste time on negotiations. That’s what they say when they are cornered by facts. Charge your lasers, load your missiles and make sure there will be no people like Rella left alive. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1364 "2018-04-15T17:19:30Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Previous war ended about 700-ish years ago (or something like that?) > All descendants of initially captured minmatars were released. > Taking into account average minmatar procreation age and generation “depth”, we can get approximate age depth of about 300 years old, which will give us timeframe when current Minmatar slaves or ancestors of current slaves were enslaved. > Then we know that Empire enslaving doctrine allows enslaving only criminals and prisoners of war. > Then we remember that the current war has started only 10 years ago. > > And here comes conclusion, that all these minmatars, who left enslaved in the Empire, are just petty criminals or descendants of these criminals, who were enslaved for violating Amarr Empire law in Amarr Empire territory. > > Now here comes logical question: why exactly there are so many _minmatar **criminals** _ compared to other people? > (Well, considering Amarr enslaving doctrine doesn’t list enslaving preferences by nationality - only by their actions) This is not correct. The majority of enslaved Minmatar in the Empire are the descendants of the conquering of the Minmatar people over 700 years ago. The Minmatar were defeated early but the enslavement itself took place over decades and centuries. The emancipation of 9th generation and above only applied to those descended from people enslaved by the first raids. Not the subsequent ones, which took place later. Yes, there are some Minmatar descended from free Amarr citizens convicted of crime and sentenced by the courts to slavery. But they are a rare few, not the majority. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=67) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=69)