# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1385 "2018-04-17T19:06:12Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > “The Federation is weak and a threat to our societies.” > > Now that to me is just the kind of absurdity capsuleers seem all too willing to peddle as “truth”. Hmm. So, let me see if I can frame that in a way that’ll seem a little less absurd. It’s basically a Caldari objection to the Federation that dates back probably to first contact. The thinking goes something like this. 1. Life is a crucible for burning weakness away. We Caldari have, through our blood, toil, and tireless determination, proved our strength: we have survived everything our hellhole of a world has thrown at us. Truly we are ready to confront all the universe has to throw at … uh. Wait. Who are these guys? 2. You Gallente are from a warm, pleasant, comfortable world that’s barely challenged you in the slightest. (We shall for now ignore that the very fact of this challenges our understanding of life.) You’re unprepared-- fundamentally unready!-- for the harshness of this world we all live in. Sooner or later, you will be crushed under the inexorable and merciless tide of history! (Come on … any day now … dammit history what are you waiting for?!) 3. And you want US to be like YOU?!?!?!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! That’s more or less the feeling in a nutshell. As for capsuleers, uh … well. There are some of us who like to think of ourselves as able to think our way out of wet paper bags, pasteboard boxes, and possibly even various weird non-Euclidean objects, but if you want the real intellectual heavy lifters of the world … maybe try a university? We’re essentially the high-volume wetwork specialists of modern society. For some of us it requires some philosophical musings to be able to look at ourselves in the mirror, but, it’s not really a universal condition. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1386 "2018-04-17T19:25:14Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > There are some of us who like to think of ourselves as able to think our way out of wet paper bags I dunno, that wet paper gets _clingy_ in all the wrong places and then Morgana starts hitting on you… ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1387 "2018-04-17T20:07:02Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > You Gallente are from a warm, pleasant, comfortable world that’s barely challenged you in the slightest. (We shall for now ignore that the very fact of this challenges our understanding of life.) You’re unprepared-- fundamentally unready!-- for the harshness of this world we all live in. Sooner or later, you will be crushed under the inexorable and merciless tide of history! (Come on … any day now … dammit history what are you waiting for?!) That just goes to show how woefully inadequate the Caldari grasp on Gallentean history is. Because while the Caldari were busy stabbing each other with pointy sticks, back on Gallentia, there was mass industrialized warfare for over three centuries resulting in the deaths of untold millions whether through the use of poison gas, artillery fire, massed incendiary bombardments of cities via skyships, and all other horrific implements of technological warfare. In fact, the period from the unification wars of Rouvenor to the military interventions of the WDL is almost a full millennia of constant warfare between Gallente states. Truly, a history of ease and comfort by comparison. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That was not an invasion. It was an incursion. And no, it was not born of arrogance, but of rage and a lack of restraining leadership. It was born of, in that moment, being an unruly mob, a situation borne of grief, of anger, of a need to act and a lack of guidance in how to do so. Was it our most diplomatic moment? Uhhhhhmmm… no. Not even close. But it also wasn’t arrogance. It wasn’t a sense of ‘we are better than you, therefore we will do this’. It was borne of utter, incoherent, ragged pain. An unwelcome or uninvited incursion into the sovereign territory of another state with an armed force is still by definition, an invasion. However, for an unruly mob, the Federation still appears to have acted with restraint in the matter by comparison to the Republic. Perhaps for once if the Minmatar had taken a page out of their own book and sought how to understand the functioning of jurisprudence between FedGov vis-a-vis member-states functioned within the Federation they might not have had recourse to stab a nominal ally in their back. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1388 "2018-04-17T20:07:18Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > “The Federation is weak and a threat to our societies.” > > Now that to me is just the kind of absurdity capsuleers seem all too willing to peddle as “truth”. Honestly, how is the Federation supposed to be undertaking campaigns of cultural imperialism as some accuse it of, if in the same breath those same accusers imply it of being so weak, and so ineffectual that it could not carry out such a campaign? How can the Federation “oppress” anyone if it does not have the strength or power to oppress anyone? Facing a force that can push you back does not infer weakness, only a lack of surplus strength. If you wish to believe otherwise is your own discretion not necessarily your audiences opinion. Your conduct has been rather stereotypical as of late, If you wish for yourself and your people to be seen as something else I’d suggest breaking that mold. The fact that those of us who can even show our enemies the dignity of public discourse without completely jumping on them like others have to you is telling. I strongly believe I’m not the only one interested in conversation with you, please afford us the opportunity with armor hardeners inactivate. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1389 "2018-04-17T20:19:35Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > That just goes to show how woefully inadequate the Caldari grasp on Gallentean history is. Because while the Caldari were busy stabbing each other with pointy sticks, back on Gallentia, there was mass industrialized warfare for over three centuries resulting in the deaths of untold millions whether through the use of poison gas, artillery fire, massed incendiary bombardments of cities via skyships, and all other horrific implements of technological warfare. In fact, the period from the unification wars of Rouvenor to the military interventions of the WDL is almost a full millennia of constant warfare between Gallente states. So … here’s the thing, though: it’s not like the Caldari don’t “do” infighting? They do. Usually more or less politely, but it happens. But you, fighting each other on that scale? That’s not showing your strength, your fitness as a people. To Caldari eyes, it’s more like the opposite: taking a time when you should have been building and gathering your strength, and wasting it in war against your own. (I’m aware it’s not so easy to just say, “We probably shouldn’t be killing each other by the millions, so let’s just all stop, okay?”) Part of what makes Caldari see the Federation as weak is that it’s subject to the whim of the mob. Public opinion swept a militant, fascist faction into power at the dawn of the Great War, and if it hadn’t been quickly swept out again that might have been the end of your democracy. The same dynamics, the Caldari fear, could do it again. Your historical capacity for warring against your own doesn’t do a lot to diminish those concerns. (Mind, they now have more recent experience with their own form of governmental instability. It’ll probably be a few hundred years before it needs relearning, though-- the Caldari have a long collective memory.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1390 "2018-04-17T20:30:16Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > the functioning of jurisprudence between FedGov vis-a-vis member-states functioned within the Federation As the Republic is not a Federal member-state, this would have availed them nothing. Instead, the Republic had already exhausted the available diplomatic channels as established between _peers_. The crime committed was committed against us. The Federation refused extradition solely because of _their_ paternalistic arrogance. Your people insisted we could not be trusted to give a fair trial to a man who admitted his crime. And you speak of _our_ arrogance in our incursion? That’s been the Gallente’s problem the whole time, you know. Arrogance. Treating other peoples like children. The Caldari wanted self-determination, and the Gallente refused… the result was bloodshed. The State wanted only the return of _their homeworld_, and the Gallente refused. The result? Bloodshed. The Republic wanted only to be able to dispense justice for a crime committed against the Matari people, and the Gallente _refused_… and the result was bloodshed. Maybe the Gallente should stop trying to tell other people they’re not _allowed_ to manage their own affairs? ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1391 "2018-04-17T20:41:56Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > But you, fighting each other on that scale? That’s not showing your strength, your fitness as a people. To Caldari eyes, it’s more like the opposite: taking a time when you should have been building and gathering your strength, and wasting it in war against your own. Because the Gallente are not, nor have they ever been “one people”. Even today, many citizens don’t identify as a singular ethno-centric identity. What the Federation represents is an attempt to manage conflict without resort to violence, and recognizing that while differences will always occur, it’s better to seek common ground than all out war. > [@Arrendis](#): > > The Federation refused extradition solely because of their paternalistic arrogance. The Federation refused extradition, because the Federal government had no authority to do so until hearings were conducted in the courts on which territory the crime was committed. Once those hearings were concluded, and Broteau was handed over to the GFP, he could then be handed over to the Republic under the auspices of FedGov. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1392 "2018-04-17T20:44:21Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > The Federation refused extradition, because the Federal government had no authority to do so until hearings were conducted in the courts on which territory the crime was committed. Once those hearings were concluded, and Broteau was handed over to the GFP, he could then be handed over to the Republic under the auspices of FedGov. And why should Federation hearings and laws take precedence? Because it was inside your borders, you say. But by our standards, geography is irrelevant; it was our blood that was on the floor so it was ours to judge. Basically, what you are saying is that Fed law takes precedence because Fed law says it should do so, and if that is not arrogance, what is? Why not put responsibility on the _Federation_ to understand how _Republic_ laws worked on that matter? And to be honest - it did not feel like an unruly mob on the field that day. It felt like a fleet. A fleet with very, _very_ painful orders, but still a fleet, not a mob. In my mind there is no question that what I did, I did knowingly. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1393 "2018-04-17T20:46:43Z")
To be fair, my equating the actions of our forces more to that of an unruly mob was referring to the leadership elements that might have otherwise restrained the Republic Fleet ships before going in at all, not their conduct on the field. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1394 "2018-04-17T20:47:49Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > To be fair, my equating the actions of our forces more to that of an unruly mob was referring to the leadership elements that might have otherwise restrained the Republic Fleet ships before going in at all, not their conduct on the field. I accept that, and you are generous in attributing it to grief. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1395 "2018-04-17T20:48:21Z")
We divide Amarr Prime and Matar in half. The Minmatar can get the crap hemisphere, the one with Udoria in it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1396 "2018-04-17T20:50:32Z")
What can I say, I’m a giver. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1397 "2018-04-17T21:13:46Z")
> [@Tyrel\_Toov](#): > > Skewed, biased facts viewed from an ultra-nationalist point of view so twisted that nobody else in the cluster can truly comprehend it… but sure, facts… And here, ladies and gentlemen, we can see a typical reply of a gallente propagandist, who tries to blame Caldari officer with nothing, but his own imagination. That grade of replies, IMHO, shall be denied in a civilized society. But since they just keep barking, using guns would be a better way of dealing with this nonsence gallentean bootlickers scream at us with impotent rage. There is just nothing to object, not a single fact, nothing to discuss, only Tyrel’s imagination. Luckily, these groundless hateful screams is all they could do against us. Caldari weapons and Caldari words are stronger that this sort. Unlike Tyrel’s grade of trolling, I blame his in nonsence and propaganda based on his own words, that I have quoted. These are the facts, that I would like you all to see, and remember - that he is not the one to be talked with. ---
**Author:** ![edeity](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/edeity/32/251884_2.png) [@edeity](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/edeity)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1398 "2018-04-17T21:16:43Z")
I am gravely concerned this talk of abolishment of slavery is a case of throwing babies out with the bath water. What of the much good - and I do not mean economic - what of the spiritual good given to these poor wretches, the gift of slavery from the beneficent and gracious chosen race? We are all slaves in service of divinity. What greater gift for ones spiritual edification can there be than to literally be enslaved to the divinely chosen - so that ones life, ones work has meaning and contributes to greatness. I am deeply concerned with all this talk of freedom and emancipation that no one is considering the Matari’s, a race I have a fondness and affection for. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1399 "2018-04-17T21:17:34Z")
With respect Strike commander, hes under State Protectorate contract… ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1400 "2018-04-17T21:20:57Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > With respect Strike commander, hes under State Protectorate contract… Oh… so he is one of these traitorous scum, trying to sneak into our ranks? Hmm, I might look into the options of delivering the cleansing regarding that part. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1401 "2018-04-17T21:21:48Z")
under my banner… ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1402 "2018-04-17T21:23:14Z")
Please solve this problem then before it will escalate. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1403 "2018-04-17T21:27:45Z")
With pleasure… Now, if you feel my corporation or myself are **traitorous scum** , kindly request the CMC investigate such an accusation. I am not one to take my word I give lightly, they will be wasting their time. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/1404 "2018-04-17T21:32:37Z")
There is nothing really to investigate, everything is right in here: > [@Tyrel\_Toov](#): > > Skewed, biased facts viewed from an ultra-nationalist point of view so twisted that nobody else in the cluster can truly comprehend it… but sure, facts… Unprovoked hostility: check Attack on CMC officer: check Public slanders about Caldari pilot: check [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=69) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=71)