# (Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263 "2017-11-28T22:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/161 "2017-12-02T15:21:58Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > at least this thread is a nice demonstration of how impossible it is going to be to resolve this conflict through diplomacy. I think Ms Mizhara, in most class, gender and race struggles the oppressed have had to, more often than not, take power from the oppressing group in order to gain equality within that society, if I understand these things correctly. Even the most well intentioned oppressing group just never fully understands on what ways they’re being oppressive, even in small daily interactions with others. I hope that Mr Aldrith is sincere, or at least he may think he is, in starting this discussion but in any case perhaps he’s more aware then previously. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > The Amarr are ensuring that only two choices remain, war or surrender. The Amarr have a long way to go yet I’m not willing to accept that a third, and far better option, can’t be achieved. I hope this doesn’t make me naive. If things continue the way they are that might prove to be the case. @Aldrith_Shutaq, naturally I can’t know your mind, and I know our interactions haven’t always been pleasant, but what I’m about to say I hope you take it in goodwill. If you’re truly sincere about helping free Minmatar and giving them autonomy, then try to be a good ally. You well know that changing all of Amarr attitudes and practices overnight isn’t going to happen, you’ve told us plainly yourself, but you are in charge of your own attitudes and practices, at least as much as any of us are. Listen to what Minmatar within and without your nation are saying and use your position to intervene against oppressive practices against Minmatar. Work to change your government’s, and those around you, mind. Publicly stand with Minmatar on positions of greater equality within your nation. You’re going make mistakes but you’ll be doing more than simply talking in a public forum and may even incur personal risk. Maybe you’re already doing all this, then kudos to you. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/162 "2017-12-02T15:42:03Z")
> [@Vaari](#): > > Lord Vaari Oh, okay. Lord Vaari. I guess… ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/163 "2017-12-02T15:54:00Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > The Amarr have a long way to go yet I’m not willing to accept that a third, and far better option, can’t be achieved. I hope this doesn’t make me naive. If things continue the way they are that might prove to be the case. There’s a deadline. The people who are currently held break a little more, every day it’s delayed. Do find that better third option if you can, but don’t expect it to make it in time. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/164 "2017-12-02T16:35:47Z")
> [@Sah\_Phyre](#): > > Unless you’ve been told that by the Theology Council (and the Empress herself for good measure), you shouldn’t be taking that statement as gospel. Thank you Ms Phyre, I’ll try to keep that in mind. > [@Sah\_Phyre](#): > > perhaps you could allow for some agency for positive change for everyone else, too? And the Reclaiming too, for that matter? I truly am hoping for change, Ms Phyre. The only way I can see this happening at this point is if, no matter where we find ourselves in the cluster, or which side we’re on, decide on the main goal, pick some sub tasks that contribute to it, and then, maybe somehow, we’ll find that we’ve achieved everything that we needed too. The whole black-and-white dichotomy being tossed around by some, or the insistence on compromises by others, all sound very defeatist to me. A third, non-compromising position may exist and we just have to have the courage, cleverness and persistence to find it. I wish I had all the traits I mentioned because I’d love to be the one to find it, as it is I have to hope that someone else does, but perhaps something I’ve done or said might contribute to unlocking this puzzle. As for Reclaiming, I think I’ve stated what I think might be the best solution. It would involve some secularization, a dirty word to those who don’t know that it means, of the concept. At minimum Reclaiming would not be allowed to influence politics in areas outside of Amarr space to promote Amarr faith, ideals or agendas above others in the political arena, nor be used to coerce free agents, which would ideally include slaves, into your faith. Such a position would apply to all faiths across the board as one’s faith should not be a test for political power or position. The Amarr faith would have to be content with acting as an equal contender among other faiths and religions anywhere outside of Amarr space. Of course the current goal of Reclaiming, as I understand it, is just to do all of the above that I’ve said it can’t be allowed to do so at this point that remains an issue. Barring a decree from Amarr’s Council of Theology and the Empress as you’ve already stated. ---
**Author:** ![Mitara\_Newelle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mitara_newelle/32/384431_2.png) [@Mitara\_Newelle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mitara_Newelle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/165 "2017-12-04T02:36:59Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > The people who are currently held break a little more, every day it’s delayed You say this as if it’s a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 8:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/166 "2017-12-04T08:51:51Z")
> [@Mitara\_Newelle](#): > > You say this as if it’s a bad thing. The fact that you don’t see that it is tells us all we need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/167 "2017-12-04T10:43:39Z")
It is a good thing that so many of the persons in this thread are capsuleers and can easily afford throat and dental treatments. Otherwise all this wailing and gnashing of teeth would be most detrimental. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/168 "2017-12-04T10:50:35Z")
But wouldn’t that just sound like lots of bubbling and dull clunks in all the pod goo? ---
**Author:** ![Mitara\_Newelle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mitara_newelle/32/384431_2.png) [@Mitara\_Newelle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mitara_Newelle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/169 "2017-12-04T15:34:19Z")
I’m sure you remember the verse, apostate. “_Only through many hardships_ _Is a man stripped to his very foundations_ _And in such a state_ _Devoid of distractions_ _Is his soul free to soar_ _And in this_ _He is closest to God_” - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5 ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/170 "2017-12-05T08:39:59Z")
Whilst I understand the sentiment behind that and have observed it in many, I don’t particularly see it as a cause to inflict hardship upon others. ---
**Author:** ![Aergri\_Evingod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aergri_evingod/32/116437_2.png) [@Aergri\_Evingod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aergri_Evingod)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/171 "2017-12-05T11:25:24Z")
> [@Mitara\_Newelle](#): > > I’m sure you remember the verse, apostate. > > “_Only through many hardships_ > _Is a man stripped to his very foundations_ > _And in such a state_ > _Devoid of distractions_ > _Is his soul free to soar_ > _And in this_ > _He is closest to God_” > > - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5 replacing god with spirits and sould with self this could also be said of spiritual journeys. ---
**Author:** ![Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pieter_tuulinen/32/155371_2.png) [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pieter_Tuulinen)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/172 "2017-12-05T16:16:04Z")
You’re really not bargaining in a sensible fashion, Ms Teinyhr. Whilst you contend that slavery should not exist in a sane universe (and I tend to agree) it does form the chief and principle demand of a peace between the Empire and the Tribal Republic. If it helps, try simply listing your demands for peace, viewing the Amarrian demands and deciding whether you could be happier living in a universe where THIS is the status quo ante. Try not to think of individual clauses and what each of them costs, unless you get close enough to a workable exchange to make haggling over details viable. It also helps to look at the deal from the opposite negotiating point. What does freeing the Matari slaves mean to the Empire? How much will it cost and what sort of undertakings will the Empire need to make it possible to carry out? Imagine you have been hired as a negotiator by the Empire and imagine how you would approach making a deal - satisfying your clients needs first, then their wants. This will identify which points are on the table for negotiation and which points form the core of the proposal. I’m well aware of the tactic of making your demands untenable and then using the lack of satisfaction of those demands as a casus belli. This is sometimes a useful tactic if you feel you can win a war and get what you want, that way. When you aren’t sure you can even _survive_ said war, it’s a sub-optimal tactic, at best, since it guarantees the continuation of the unbearable condition, and the state of war. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/173 "2017-12-05T18:16:49Z")
> [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](#): > > You’re really not bargaining in a sensible fashion, Ms Teinyhr. That’s because I am not bargaining. There is nothing to bargain about. **_The Republic owes the Empire nothing._** > [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](#): > > If it helps, try simply listing your demands for peace, viewing the Amarrian demands and deciding whether you could be happier living in a universe where THIS is the status quo ante. The demands shown thus far would only weaken the Republic and cause internal strife, despite mr. Shutaq’s super-optimistic claims that they don’t. > [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](#): > > What does freeing the Matari slaves mean to the Empire? How much will it cost and what sort of undertakings will the Empire need to make it possible to carry out? Imagine you have been hired as a negotiator by the Empire and imagine how you would approach making a deal - satisfying your clients needs first, then their wants. I maybe haven’t established this point well earlier; I understand this what you said very well. I understand this point completely. However, as has been established before, this is a hostage negotiation - Amarr stole our people and now they want us to give them things for their release. This is not a fair negotiation point from the beginning. > [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](#): > > I’m well aware of the tactic of making your demands untenable and then using the lack of satisfaction of those demands as a casus belli. Why does everyone constantly assume I’m gearing up for or even a proponent of war? ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/174 "2017-12-05T18:17:43Z")
Thank you for trying, Mr. Tuulinen, but it is clear there is nothing to discuss with her. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/175 "2017-12-05T18:23:59Z")
There is nothing to discuss at all, period. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/176 "2017-12-05T18:24:43Z")
And this why everyone assumes you are advocating for war. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/177 "2017-12-05T18:27:49Z")
Because I will not sell my backside or my peoples backsides for abysmal deals that will cripple my homeworld? My entire nation? That makes me a proponent for war? Yeah, there is definetly nothing to discuss here. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/178 "2017-12-05T18:44:51Z")
It does, because that is the only alternative to the situation as it stands. This sort of pride from either side will lead to nothing but destruction. I have made the first move by admitting the mistakes the Empire made when attempting to Reclaim your people, and am willing to suffer the consequences for those mistakes. The rest of the Empire, however, yet needs convincing, so I thought I might seek reasonable voices from the free Matari to help my case for peace. Yet you are too stubborn to acknowledge that step towards healing the old wounds, instead portraying it as a dishonest attempt to gain an upper-hand, when you know full well that freeing the Minmatar in the Empire would be far more destabilizing for us than for you. That is fine. I expected outright resistance from those who think as Mizhara do. But if these are your feelings then there is no place for you in this discussion. The Empire will not free the Minmatar for nothing. You can either pay the price by acknowledging our right to spread our faith peacefully, or you can pay the price with your dead. The only other option is what we have now; a perpetual uneasy truce maintained by outside forces and political expedience. So, I suppose you advocate for the status quo, if you are not advocating for either conclusion. Basically, you wish to do nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/179 "2017-12-05T19:12:26Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > It does, because that is the only alternative to the situation as it stands. Bullcrap. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I have made the first move by admitting the mistakes the Empire made when attempting to Reclaim your people True. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Yet you are too stubborn to acknowledge that step towards healing the old wounds, instead portraying it as a dishonest attempt to gain an upper-hand, when you know full well that freeing the Minmatar in the Empire would be far more destabilizing for us than for you. Grade A bullcrap. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > You can either pay the price by acknowledging our right to spread our faith peacefully, or you can pay the price with your dead. Might want to consider your wording there. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > The only other option is what we have now; a perpetual uneasy truce maintained by outside forces and political expedience. Even more bullcrap. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > So, I suppose you advocate for the status quo, if you are not advocating for either conclusion. Basically, you wish to do nothing. You can’t say that if I want peace, oh, you must want it at any price. I am seeking peace, but not at any price. The price you have laid out essentially means giving up to the Amarr without a fight. The price you laid out can be read in the most simplest of terms “Allow us to try and take over your culture without any resistance. Allow us to take over your economy. And the best of all, you foot the bill for all of it.” That is too much. That is not an honest bid for peace, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it, and I’m stupefied if anyone else does not see through this. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/180 "2017-12-05T19:44:47Z")
Yet you state that the Minmatar Republic owes the Empire nothing for failing to prosecute terrorists, failing to control the Defiants, supporting the Elder Fleet invasion, maintaining the Tribal Liberation Force, and a myriad of other offenses directed to the Empire well after we made peace following the Rebellion. These are not the actions of an innocent state. If you have better ideas, offer them. But that idea cannot simply be “The Empire releases all Minmatar slaves and leaves us alone for eternity.” Even without considering the Reclaiming, that would be impossible. So, I ask you, what are you willing to do to help the Empire free your people? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263.md?page=10)