# Ad Fidem Ex Industria - Some personal thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618 "2019-03-25T23:06:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![James\_Syagrius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_syagrius/32/439868_2.png) [@James\_Syagrius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Syagrius)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/21 "2019-03-30T14:41:21Z")
> [@Kranacoi\_Halvora](#): > > Many Gallente brothers and sisters would see me as a traitor for joining SFRIM – indeed, one has already expressed their disappointment with me over it. To you, sibling of _la Patrie_ , I hope you can understand why I chose to make this journey. You chose well when you associated yourself with The Society. They are in the main ‘good people.’ ‘We’ believe, that each person finds there own path. Like you, I may not always agree, but do not always judge. However, remember when interacting with our Imperial friends that you had the choice, the ‘free will’ to choose. Others are not afforded that courtesy. Always remember who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/22 "2019-03-30T14:57:20Z")
Well said, and ya I couldn’t agree more on the last point. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/23 "2019-04-02T18:14:03Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Commander Kim, the reason it has been asked is because his affiliation with SFRIM, an Amarr aligned organization raises the question of whether or not he tacitly supports the institution of slavery, which SFRIM clearly does. As a Galente Citizen, an empire that is famous for its stance on freedom and anti slavery, as well as an allied power to the Republic which is also a staunch anti slavery power, this raises questions. As a Matari currently flying with an Amarr Loyalist corporation, I get much the same questions. The question of slavery is absolutely unimportant, since it’s just internal Imperial matter how to treat their criminals. And speaking about the moral side of the problem - for Gallente Citizens in particular, poking other societies simply on slavery, while their own government creates hidden prisons to torture, starve, beat, rape - not even criminals but prisoners of war, putting them into exploding cells - that would be the most disgusting example of hypocrisy. How dare they blame the Empire in slavery - which is, technically, forcing criminals to work, while they themselves treat them times worse? I believe the best way to feel that is to put together a random minmatar slave from the Empire to caldari PoW from the Federal prison camp, and I tell you, when you will see these people, you definitely will prefer to be enslaved by Amarr than being put into Gallente prison camp. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > The issue of slavery here has nothing to do about criminals; The institution of slavery is strong within Amarr, which is supported by SFRIM. I refer not to the enslavement of criminals, but of the enslavement of non-criminals, of innocents and forcing them to serve even though they have committed no crime. All in the name of their reclaiming. I believe enslaving innocents is against Imperial law, you’re looking more at Blood Raiders, Sansha or Angel Cartel who will enslave anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/24 "2019-04-02T18:18:12Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > I believe enslaving innocents is against Imperial law, you’re looking more at Blood Raiders, Sansha or Angel Cartel who will enslave anyone. Enslaving innocents is not against Imperial law. Their entire system is based on the enslavement of Innocents. The Amarr do to my people what you claim the Galente do to yours. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/25 "2019-04-02T18:24:25Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Enslaving innocents is not against Imperial law. Their entire system is based on the enslavement of Innocents. The Amarr do to my people what you claim the Galente do to yours. That’s incorrect. Please refer to Imperial lawyer for clarification when a subject can be enslaved. I am willing to bet 100m isk an “innocence” will not be among enslaving criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/26 "2019-04-02T18:45:11Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > innocence” will not be among enslaving criteria. Neither is criminality. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/27 "2019-04-02T22:13:35Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Neither is criminality. There is a number of crimes committing which is punished by enslavement in the Empire, so this is wrong as well. For a list of such offenses consult with Imperial lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Garion\_Avarr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garion_avarr/32/415302_2.png) [@Garion\_Avarr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garion_Avarr)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/28 "2019-04-03T02:28:40Z")
So, it is illegal in the Empire to take new slaves unless they are either convicted criminals or, as I understand, prisoners of war. That doesn’t mean innocent people aren’t taken as new slaves, but it is illegal. That said, this has only been the case in the last hundred years, and the vast majority of slaves in the Empire have committed no crime, but are the descendants of those who were enslaved for no reason other than that they were not True Amarr. So Cmdr. Kim is correct in her assertion regarding who may be (legally) enslaved, but mistaken about the general composition of slaves in the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/29 "2019-04-03T02:51:55Z")
> [@Garion\_Avarr](#): > > So Cmdr. Kim is correct in her assertion regarding who may be (legally) enslaved, but mistaken about the general composition of slaves in the Empire. Strictly, she’s not. A child born to slaves is not a slave _until it is designated to be one_. It is _enslaved_ at birth, while innocent. Being a slave, like being nobility, is a legal status that must be conveyed upon someone. It is not a property of their physical existence, the way ‘blue-eyed’ or ‘dark-skinned’ would be. ---
**Author:** ![Garion\_Avarr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garion_avarr/32/415302_2.png) [@Garion\_Avarr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garion_Avarr)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 3:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/30 "2019-04-03T03:57:12Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Strictly, she’s not. A child born to slaves is not a slave _until it is designated to be one_ . It is _enslaved_ at birth, while innocent. Being a slave, like being nobility, is a legal status that must be conveyed upon someone. It is not a property of their physical existence, the way ‘blue-eyed’ or ‘dark-skinned’ would be. I would say that is a matter of perspective, and that to the Amarr, their enslavement is merely an extension of their ancestor’s slavery, and not _new_ slavery. They were enslaved, in this view, at the same time as their ancestors were, the fact that they were not born then is immaterial. Obviously, most non-Amarr have a rather different perspective on this. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/31 "2019-04-03T05:01:55Z")
> [@Garion\_Avarr](#): > > They were enslaved, in this view, at the same time as their ancestors were, the fact that they were not born then is immaterial. It’s not that they weren’t born then, they didn’t _exist_ then. At all. So to say that they were already enslaved means that you’re effectively saying that you’ve _already_ brought God’s Word to any stars that might be born from the gas clouds that will remain after Amarr’s sun explodes in several billion years. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ad-fidem-ex-industria-some-personal-thoughts/148618/32 "2019-07-02T05:02:00Z")
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