# Alphas and Free to Play **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [February 5, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046 "2025-02-05T15:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/243 "2025-02-10T18:31:56Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Even an Ibis can kill Titan given the right circumstances, that is not what a balancing discussion is about Citation needed where one Ibis can take out a Titan. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/244 "2025-02-10T18:39:50Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > Citation needed where one Ibis can take out a Titan. Dunno about an Ibis…but a solo Retribution has done so. As both victim and victor were in same corp…hmm, what was going on there. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 6:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/245 "2025-02-10T18:52:54Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Dunno about an Ibis…but a solo Retribution has done so. As both victim and victor were in same corp…hmm, what was going on there. If that’s true then the Titan needs to be completely reworked. The tank of a capital ship - especially a Titan- should have been enough to soak the damage immediately. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/3/6/8369740cfc92a6b617d3c72247bce9bcdde2e390.jpeg ""Captain, They Are Now Locking Lasers On Us." LT. Worf") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLGDKVJlqL0) > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Strange how you admit the sheer potential huge imbalance in the game, yet grapple with the piddling and relatively minor imbalance of a few battlecruisers. Nerf the Ibis. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/246 "2025-02-10T18:56:22Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > If a Gnosis is ‘better’ than a Harbinger…so what ? And ‘better’ at what ? Better at almost _everything_. For a lower price. And lower SP requirements. That _is_ a bad balancing because it doesn’t reward the pilot who skills months into the Battlecruiser skills and has to invest into a more expensive hull. Even _within the same class of ships_. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > perform the same task ‘better’ ? Balancing isn’t about “tasks” because those “tasks” are completely situational and egocentrical chosen by the user. There is no “problem” if a certain ship is very good at some task. It _is_ a problem if a ship is so good that it performs incredibly well in _many_ situations, making lots of other ships inferior or even ignored. Or at least not rewarded skilling into them, because that feels bad for those people who do, it punishes Omega Players willing to invest months of skilltime to skill a racial BC or BS path and then seeing a simple Gnosis or Praxis outperforming their racial ships in most situations. If a company cares for it’s customers, it doesn’t do that kind of design. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/247 "2025-02-10T21:48:27Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > Nerf the Ibis. I’ve actually been in a fleet of 40 corvettes that attacked a Blackflag fleet of Leshaks. But as it was a spur of the moment fun gesture and rapid undock, nobody thought to bring a warp scrambler. Undoubtedly a large enough number of these _free_ ships could do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2025, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/248 "2025-02-10T22:27:33Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Better at almost _everything_. For a lower price. And lower SP requirements. That _is_ a bad balancing because it doesn’t reward the pilot who skills months into the Battlecruiser skills and has to invest into a more expensive hull. Even _within the same class of ships_. I doubt any sensible pilot is skilling _just_ for a Gnosis. Or doing so for any length of time. Especially, as you say, with the Gnosis not requiring any race skills anyway. Thus the vast majority of skills the person flying the Gnosis would skill for would be skills that are invaluable for any other ship flown. The laser skills, shield skills, sensor skills, neuting skills, etc, etc…can all be ported to other ships. Given that the Gnosis itself requires so little skills, why would anyone be held up for months in their training for any race ships ?? > [@Syzygium](#): > > it punishes Omega Players willing to invest months of skilltime to skill a racial BC or BS path and then seeing a simple Gnosis or Praxis outperforming their racial ships in most situations. You are presenting a zero sum game when there isn’t one. Nothing about skilling for a Gnosis, which I have, has held me up in skilling for a Navy Brutix, Prophecy, Navy Harbinger, Phantasm, Navy Augoror, Talos, Tornado, Hurricane, and shortly a Zealot, that I also have all of and am skilled for and am increasingly flying. The Gnosis has simply been a _very handy_ ship for trying out what modules do and their effect, precisely because you can fit multiple weapons systems to it. And I suspect that was all along its main purpose. Even within AO fleets, the Gnosis is generally a ‘noob ship’ generally for T1 players and most of the fleet rests on race ships like Eagles and Rokhs and so on. I’ve yet to fly in _any_ fleet that was entirely Gnosis on account of them being ‘so much better than everything else’. ---
**Author:** ![Eternus8lux8lucis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eternus8lux8lucis/32/385152_2.png) [@Eternus8lux8lucis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eternus8lux8lucis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 1:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/249 "2025-02-11T01:36:32Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > I’ve yet to fly in _any_ fleet that was entirely Gnosis on account of them being ‘so much better than everything else’. This pretty much sums it up for me. Not only are they creating a problem and then a solution for it that they desire but you dont see massive null fleets, or really any medium sized fleets of gnosis running around owning everything in sight. Put together some null fleets, some wh fleets, some low sec fleets all armed with nothing but gnosis and prove they are superior to anything that can come up against them. Its a made up problem with made up solutions. But nerfing is CCPs way of working when they fixate on their newest ‘made up flavor of the month issue’. The reason they wont work for any large fleets is I believe that supply isnt enough to sustain that kinda losses for long and prices for the remaining few would skyrocket into the stratosphere and stop it from happening ever again. 🤑 😈 ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 1:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/250 "2025-02-11T01:44:03Z")
> [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > This pretty much sums it up for me. Not only are they creating a problem and then a solution for it that they desire but you dont see massive null fleets, or really any medium sized fleets of gnosis running around owning everything in sight. a) you’re falling for obvious subterfuge. Because no **entire** fleet consists of the same ship really, so that’s an easy claim to make. b) Big fleets generally work with SRP or at the very least local producers, if only to turn ore and production into isk and power. SOCT ships are simply not useful for that. ---
**Author:** ![Eternus8lux8lucis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eternus8lux8lucis/32/385152_2.png) [@Eternus8lux8lucis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eternus8lux8lucis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 1:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/251 "2025-02-11T01:52:27Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > a) you’re falling for obvious subterfuge. Because no **entire** fleet consists of the same ship really, so that’s an easy claim to make. Nit picking on details instead of actual topic is your gold Aisha. Way to shift the conversation away from the point of what I said due to pedantics. > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > b) Big fleets generally work with SRP or at the very least local producers, if only to turn ore and production into isk and power. SOCT ships are simply not useful for that. Again, then where is this wide spread usage thats a cancer to Eve? Pedantic much? If fringe cases of single kills is your metric for this “uber” usage and cancer then youre simply pulling at straws to make your argument valid. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 2:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/252 "2025-02-11T02:06:46Z")
> [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Way to shift the conversation away from the point of what I said due to pedantics It’s about you accepting Gloria’s obvious pedantics. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Again, then where is this wide spread usage thats a cancer to Eve? Pedantic much? If fringe cases of single kills is your metric for this “uber” usage and cancer then youre simply pulling at straws to make your argument valid. None of what you said made sense, so I’m going to file it under “didn’t have an argument”. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/253 "2025-02-11T02:18:02Z")
> [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Its a made up problem with made up solutions. 95% of forum threads are. Fact is, even if the Gnosis did have any ‘unfair’ advantage in any situation…it is an advantage that is open to all. The only really unfair situations are those where person A has some advantage that person B for some reason _cannot_ equally have. ---
**Author:** ![Eternus8lux8lucis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eternus8lux8lucis/32/385152_2.png) [@Eternus8lux8lucis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eternus8lux8lucis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/254 "2025-02-11T03:11:59Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > None of what you said made sense, so I’m going to file it under “didn’t have an argument”. If you have played eve since 2003 like I have then youd understand that one of CCPs biggest nerfbat metrics is that of overusage. When a market is saturated in terms of ship usages and its become a stale and overused meta without good counters then change is needed. I see no such overusage or meta breaking requirements. Do you? Ive read every single post on here, except your hidden post, and you make an argument of price and overuse compared to other doctrine ships. Yet No doctrine makes use of the gnosis, sunesis or praxis and it is only fringe, underused cases that seem to be your issue. Youve argued about skill issues, or rather lack of need for skills to use the ships themselves and how that is somehow unfair. I could posit a case for the lack of skills needed from a CCP point of view as they do like keeping people skilling and having such ships as end game content by certain people doesnt promote continuous skilling… which of course requires one of, or all of, omega, skill injectors and PLEX. Again another metric for change by CCP. Something being unfair for those who use it and abuse it is only an issue if too many people are using and abusing it. Yet this use and abuse, in your opinion, seems to be a factor of its too easy to use and too variate a role so the nerfbat needs to be used upon it. So I asked you where all this use and abuse is and you countered with attacking Glorias pedantics, not even mine and swore I didnt have an argument. Again trying to shame me into silence. Your point is? ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 3:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/255 "2025-02-11T03:46:31Z")
> [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > If you have played eve since 2003 like I have I’ve been here since 2003 Beta, on and off obviously. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > one of CCPs biggest nerfbat metrics We’re going to use CCP’s logic, decisions and actions and use those as a measurement of reasonableness and sensibleness now are we? Please say yes, it’ll be funny. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > No doctrine makes use of the gnosis, sunesis or praxis Null entities are based in their industry, it’s what they get their power and wealth from. They gather resources, turn those into ships that preserve their power and control and if ships get destroyed the insurance iskies flows back into their local economy. For that to work you need to be able to produce LOTS of ships, like a lot lot. Doesn’t work with SOCT ships. Beyond that, null entities want their members to advance into bigger and better doctrines over time, they are not helped by using ships that require no ship skills because it doesn’t entice their clone soldiers to train said ship skills. Also, generally, people who can’t fly the main doctrine ships can fly other stuff that’s also needed and helpful. A large alliance that wants to go places is not going to use SOCT ships for its main fleets. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > underused It is underused in null fleets, it’s NOT underused in smaller engagements. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Youve argued It’s too cheap for what it does, it’s too powerful compared to its normal counterparts. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Something being unfair for those who use it and abuse it is only an issue if too many people are using and abusing it. If not many players do some specific play style but within that play style there is one ship, module or mechanic that is way better than the others, it needs adjusting. Just because in the large scheme of things it’s not an issue doesn’t mean that in the micro cosmos of its niche use it’s fine and shouldn’t be changed. > [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Your point is? If it’s not that great, I’m assuming you don’t use it. So why do you care so much? ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/256 "2025-02-11T03:59:52Z")
While I do enjoy all this bickering back and forth, I’m out of popcorn. So, let’s just all fleet up for some Gnosis-on-Gnosis violence. You’ll get a few kills, it removes some of them from the game, everyone wins… ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 5:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/257 "2025-02-11T05:09:17Z")
> [@QuakeGod](#): > > So, let’s just all fleet up for some Gnosis-on-Gnosis violence. That would mean our intellectual superiors leaving their cosy ivory towers and actually undocking. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/258 "2025-02-11T11:39:49Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > Because no **entire** fleet consists of the same ship really, so that’s an easy claim to make That’s not accurate. I was recently in a giant fleet of nothing but Rohks. Ask Gloria. She was there. She was in the adjoining fleet of Ferox ships. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/259 "2025-02-11T12:14:50Z")
> [@Eternus8lux8lucis](#): > > Yet No doctrine makes use of the gnosis, sunesis or praxis Has alread been explained. - Large Scale Ship stockpiling/replacing in Null (which is the space where the large-fleets are mainly used) is done _locally_ with the existing infrastructure and production lines. Praxii are mainly redeemed and sold in Jita, but nobody with a sane mind is going to _import_ hundreds or thousands of Battleship hulls with DSTs or JFs from Jita to Null. So one big point is simply “availability”. Anyting else can be produced on demand in basically unlimited numbers. SoCT ships can’t. - Second point is that the larger the fleets get, the more important _fat buffer_ becomes to at least give Logis a chance to catch someone against the enemy fleets Alpha. And one of the _few_ downsides of SoCT ships is that they aren’t good at this particular thing. They lack pure passive buffer since they neither get Resist boni nor the Plate/Extender Role Boni other Battleships have. - Third point is that many Doctrines are focused on _one special trait_, like extreme tank, extreme range, extreme alpha etc. And for _special purposes_ - especially when used in large numbers - there are better alternatives, despite being more expensive. However, out of Nullsec you can _absolutely_ see a clear dominance: - L4 missionrunning for all those not able to afford a Faction-Battleship or a Marauder. Praxii have basically made all other T1 Battleships redundant. Some years ago you could see beginners in Dominix, Armageddon, Apoc, Typhoon, Raven etc. make their first steps in L4s, today you can just use a Praxis and you will get better results straight over all features. - LowClass WH PvE and Rolling. 90% in the hands of Praxii if a BS is used. I see Praxii _every day_ that roll or rat in C1-C3. Multiple times. I see _barely_ other T1 BS for rolling, but pretty much _never_ for ratting. The praxis again overshadows _any_ other T1 BS here. - Baiting. Nothing baits better than a Gnosis or Praxis. Period. If you see a Gnosis or Praxis being longer than usual in the same place, it has literally written “BAIT” all over it in red letters. No other ship comes close to obliterating an attacker that misjudged the situation. After all, there isn’t much to discuss in my opinion. A BS with freaking 21 slots (!!!), full SP-free Boni on _all_ weapon systems, enough PG and CPU to fit multiple Ancillary SBs or a complete capless-damage profile - with a free scanning bonus on top is simply not in good balance with all the other available T1 alternatives. It’s absolutely obvious that this is too much power for such a cheap hull. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/260 "2025-02-11T15:52:47Z")
My Marauders don’t even have 21 slots… they top out at 19. The Rattlesnake tops out at 18 slots. And both (particularly Marauders) are considerably more expensive and require substantially more skill training. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/261 "2025-02-11T15:58:31Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > Ask Gloria. She was there. Ah, NOW it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046/262 "2025-02-11T16:06:35Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > After all, there isn’t much to discuss in my opinion. A BS with freaking 21 slots (!!!), full SP-free Boni on _all_ weapon systems, enough PG and CPU to fit multiple Ancillary SBs or a complete capless-damage profile - with a free scanning bonus on top is simply not in good balance with all the other available T1 alternatives. It’s absolutely obvious that this is too much power for such a cheap hull Yup, exactly. The thing is that there is no point in having an honest discussion with people who aren’t willing to do the same, because they are frantically trying to hide these simple and basic facts and to do that will have to create lies, smoke and mirrors. That whole line is too good. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alphas-and-free-to-play/476046.md?page=14)