# Alternative to ban pirate hulls from novice fw complex **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [November 13, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751 "2019-11-13T21:16:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/41 "2019-11-15T23:43:59Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > What you’re essentially saying is you’re fine with tech1 frigs being irrelevant but not pirate frigs. > > I’d rather have the tech1 frigs tbh. I never said or claimed t1 hulls were irrelevant, not even in comparison to pirate frigates. My entire attempt to link killmails was to provide evidence to the contrary, that t1 hulls can and do offer resistance and can do so at a substantially lower cost in comparison to what they are confronting. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So if a pirate frig is in a novice, you’ll take it with a 4-man gang of tech1 frigs. But if it’s in a small you won’t? Of course not! If I see a pirate frig in a medium complex, guess what, I’m not going to gather together a group of willing and (hopefully) capable t1 frig friends. I’m going to show up, even by myself, with a RLML Caracal or whatever is at hand that will fit and get him out, especially if it’s a war target. The same principle applies to the small. I’m going in with a nasty destroyer or an assault frigate. If the option is there and the means as well, I will definitely ship up. Why would I not? Why go through the hassle of giving every individual pilot a job and instructions if nothing is really at stake and simply going to the garage for another vessel solves the problem? You ban the hull from the novice and this kind of mentality is going to pervade the entire question of this line of ships. They will simply not be used. Especially pirate hulls, when a cheaper AF will do better in almost every circumstance and without bling. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/42 "2019-11-15T23:57:27Z")
> [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > I never said or claimed t1 hulls were irrelevant, not even in comparison to pirate frigates. So how, if pirate frigs aren’t allowed in novice sites, do they become irrelevant? > [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > I’m going to show up, even by myself, with a RLML Caracal or whatever is at hand that will fit and get him out, especially if it’s a war target. So what if the pirate frig is in a small? ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/43 "2019-11-16T00:00:56Z")
I answered both those questions already. > [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > The same principle applies to the small. I’m going in with a nasty destroyer or an assault frigate. > [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > You ban the hull from the novice and this kind of mentality is going to pervade the entire question of this line of ships. They will simply not be used. Especially pirate hulls, when a cheaper AF will do better in almost every circumstance and without bling. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/44 "2019-11-16T00:48:11Z")
So why cant you fight the destroyer or the assault frig in a pirate frig? ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 3:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/45 "2019-11-16T03:43:05Z")
Lol. Be my guest. Give it a shot and let us know how it works out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/46 "2019-11-16T03:55:44Z")
IOW, you acknowledge that AFs/destroyers outclass pirate frigates and that’s a problem, but you don’t see a problem with pirate frigates doing the same to T1 frigates in the “T1 frigates only” sites. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 6:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/47 "2019-11-16T06:21:41Z")
> **[Wolf | Sychse Fallbaron Fallbaron | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79894191/)** > > Sychse Fallbaron Fallbaron (Moosearmy) lost their Wolf in J1AU-9 (Deklein). Final Blow by ssttdumplings (Northern Desert) flying in a Daredevil. Total Value: 49,328,976.38 ISK > **[Jaguar | xgagax | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79874275/)** > > xgagax (Holy Cookie) lost their Jaguar in Kehjari (Black Rise) Total Value: 320,418,245.16 ISK > **[Thrasher | Garisa Novonaselje | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79887906/)** > > Garisa Novonaselje (Tribal Liberation Force) lost their Thrasher in Auner (Metropolis). Final Blow by Pipo Leclown (Imperial Shipment) flying in a Cruor. Total Value: 10,285,535.39 ISK > **[Jaguar | DuBoi Dustite | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79758646/)** > > DuBoi Dustite (The Lazy Crabs) lost their Jaguar in Tama (The Citadel) Total Value: 52,691,011.16 ISK > **[Enyo | Johnn Arkaral | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79887286/)** > > Johnn Arkaral (24th Imperial Crusade) lost their Enyo in Kourmonen (The Bleak Lands) Total Value: 48,050,247.49 ISK > **[Wolf | Mayobe Matar | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79849696/)** > > Mayobe Matar (Brutor Tribe Supremacists) lost their Wolf in Tama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Sir Yag (Federal Defense Union) flying in a Succubus. Total Value: 37,031,842.54 ISK > **[Ishkur | Wellard Funky | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/79829079/)** > > Wellard Funky (Almost Anonymous) lost their Ishkur in Sosala (The Bleak Lands) Total Value: 37,444,365.48 ISK Statistically speaking there’s a lesser power gap between pirate frigs and assault frigs than there is between tech 1 frigs and pirate frigs. But you expect tech1 frigs to either team up or die, but are not willing to hold pirate frigs to remotely the same standard when it comes to facing assault frigs…even though pirate frigs are capable of beating them solo…and that’s pre- speed nerf assault frigs. And the tech1 frig is far more important here. If pirate frigs become irrelevant, the player at least has other choices. If tech1 frigs are never relevant then where the hell are players supposed to start? ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/48 "2019-11-16T18:56:01Z")
Sorry, but there are a few ■■■■ fits in there, and a few garmurs pinning afterburner ships and slower armor fit ships. Not the best line up for your case. The rest are countered pretty hard, like the DD vs the jag with fury light missiles on. But that was a bad fit too. 10mn thrasher with medium extender and weakest guns; the jag with the dual prop prob just got neuted before he could turn his ADC on, sadly, which is what I would have normally done against anything but a neuting ship. I wouldn’t have waited for my ASB to hit reload. Probably the only fight in there worth pointing out, but still not the best example. He repped through the damage, most likely. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/49 "2019-11-16T19:53:41Z")
Any excuse eh? It still demonstrates pretty well that the gap between pirate frigs and assault frigs is far smalller then that between tech1 frigs and pirate frigs. So you can see why (if you’re not being obtuse) people think pirate ships don’t belong in a novice. ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/50 "2019-11-16T20:47:21Z")
I don’t agree. EHP wise they are just in line with navy hulls, with exception to the worm. Isk wise, they are way above what you can find in the small, sans t2 destroyers, but the gap in potential is in favor of the destroyers and AF’s a majority of the time. They can be countered just as easily and are often predictable in their fitting. People just don’t bring those counters or prepare for such an encounter. You are frankly just reducing the high end quality of pvp that can be found in the novice, because you want to treat new players with baby gloves, instead of teaching them how to fly smarter. You’re just hurting the ecosystem and making fights a meh experience at best in what can be found in novices in the future and not making pirate frigs worth bling when an AF can shut them down while even t2 fit. A properly fit destroyer will completely melt them. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/51 "2019-11-16T21:35:59Z")
> [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > You are frankly just reducing the high end quality of pvp that can be found in the novice, You stomping tech1 frigs in pirate frigs is ‘quality pvp’ lol. But facing off against an assault frig in a pirate frig is game breaking to you. My heart bleeds. Why don’t you gang up like you do in tech1 frigs against pirate frigs? ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/52 "2019-11-16T21:40:01Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You stomping tech1 frigs in pirate frigs is ‘quality pvp’ lol. > > But facing off against an assault frig in a pirate frig is game breaking to you. > > My heart bleeds. > > Why don’t you gang up like you do in tech1 frigs against pirate frigs? Have all my words been lost on you?! Don’t you see me in those killmails using t1 hulls against pirate vessels? Killing pirate frigs IS the high quality pvp that I mean and have been talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/53 "2019-11-16T22:55:28Z")
And why can’t you do that in pirate frigs against assault frigs or dessies (as if it was even necessary)? ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/54 "2019-11-16T23:06:52Z")
Because if I’m going to fight in a small, I’ll save some isk, put away the pirate frig and pick up an AF instead. If pirate frigs aren’t allowed in novices, why would I ever use them instead of a dessie or an AF? _poof_ you see what happened there with pirate frigates if you get your wish? They just become expensive loss mails. Why fly harder and smarter with more money in the pot when I can fly cheaper and get the same effect with something else that is eligible for the arena of a small and is even easier to fly? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/55 "2019-11-17T00:20:18Z")
> [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > If pirate frigs aren’t allowed in novices, why would I ever use them instead of a dessie or an AF? I don’t know, but you seem to have zero problem with the same fate happening to T1 frigates since there’s no reason to ever take a T1 frigate over a pirate frigate except masochistic desire to nerf yourself and prove you can still win. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/56 "2019-11-17T00:38:54Z")
Except people are taking pirate frigs against assault frigs…multiple times in the past week like i linked. As far as i can see you are the only one who will stop using pirate frigs if they aren’t allowed in novice sites. But we know why that is. Meanwhile how many people are using pirate frigs not only against assault frigs but outside of faction warfare altogether? 😱 ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/57 "2019-11-17T00:54:18Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > there’s no reason to ever take a T1 frigate over a pirate frigate except masochistic desire to nerf yourself and prove you can still win. If I do this in a pirate frig against a t1 dessie and die, i’m just called stupid. But if I do it in a t1 frigate against the alpha type in the arena … I guess i’ll settle for masochistic. > **[Hawk | DynAmiC 514 | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/34514078/)** > > DynAmiC 514 (Neo Terra Imperial Fleet Command) lost their Hawk in Heydieles (Essence). Final Blow by Alexander Oromov (Oromov Defense Union) flying in a Tristan. Total Value: 32,907,087.76 ISK > **[Hawk | Lexx Nightroad | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/37279661/)** > > Lexx Nightroad (N7 Special Ops) lost their Hawk in Fliet (Essence). Final Blow by Firey Jack (Red Federation) flying in a Jaguar. Total Value: 43,462,146.15 ISK > **[Daredevil | Kakeki Saken | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/52880444/)** > > Kakeki Saken (Caldari State Arms) lost their Daredevil in Martoh (Black Rise). Final Blow by Oreb Wing (Arm of Coryphaeus) flying in a Federation Navy Comet. Total Value: 62,666,545.71 ISK > **[Imperial Navy Slicer | Cyrenes Von Woof | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/61352157/)** > > Cyrenes Von Woof (Conoco.) lost their Imperial Navy Slicer in Athounon (Placid) Total Value: 19,596,691.59 ISK > **[Dramiel | Coldai Kill | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/54194893/)** > > Coldai Kill (Sovereign Shadow Syndicate) lost their Dramiel in Heydieles (Essence). Final Blow by Ariela Onyxi (Rapid Withdrawal) flying in a Federation Navy Comet. Total Value: 102,601,840.07 ISK > **[Worm | Rokspine | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/44182299/)** > > Rokspine (True Relativity) lost their Worm in Kinakka (Black Rise). Final Blow by Oreb Wing (Black Fox Marauders) flying in a Federation Navy Comet. Total Value: 107,090,922.74 ISK ---
**Author:** ![Oreb\_Wing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oreb_wing/32/170827_2.png) [@Oreb\_Wing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oreb_Wing)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/58 "2019-11-17T00:57:08Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > As far as i can see you are the only one who will stop using pirate frigs if they aren’t allowed in novice sites. But we know why that is. They are out there because of novices. They take on whatever is out there because they can. You remove novices, you limit the pyramid of likely targets, and therefore will surely see them used LESS often, not more. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/59 "2019-11-17T01:05:06Z")
> [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > They are out there because of novices. Even though most of their use is outside of faction warfare…🙄 > [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > You remove novices, you limit the pyramid of likely targets, and therefore will surely see them used LESS often, not more. And tech1 frigates more. Like i said above. I’d rather see more tech1 frigs. ---
**Author:** ![Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/manweru_cemenotar/32/230368_2.png) [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Manweru_Cemenotar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751/60 "2019-11-18T11:15:43Z")
> [@Oreb\_Wing](#): > > and not making pirate frigs worth bling when an AF can shut them down while even t2 fit and why again, a frigate should be “worth to bling” for PvP scenario? I mean since forever the PvP 101 stated: don’t use bling ships, think of cost effectiveness first. Don’t get me wrong, maybe I am old ■■■■ that has been out of loop for PvP standards, but if most communities centered around some forms of PvP starts their courses for newbies with “make your fits cheap” and points to cheap hulls with at utter most of expense - t2 fitting. Then heading off and meeting against fully blinged out pirate hull at the first novice site seems like set up for a bummer. And a kind of bummer that reduces amount of fresh blood actually entering PvP for good. Buuut I suppose “quality fights” of swarming pirate hulls with t1 fleets is more important than actually retaining more people to the thing all together 😉 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/alternative-to-ban-pirate-hulls-from-novice-fw-complex/200751.md?page=4)