# Another kick in the face, well done, CCP **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458 "2020-10-14T03:06:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/128 "2020-11-02T03:38:28Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > You have heard of alts haven’t you? It which case it’s them who play EVE as a single player game. Besides it’s anectotal. Everyone cant do this. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/129 "2020-11-02T03:39:00Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Everyone cant do this. Everyone can do this, some choose not to. ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/130 "2020-11-02T03:41:36Z")
My bad. Yes, everyone can. But that’s not what I meant. If everyone will, literally everyone will have every kind of alt, the game will lose any kind of goal. There will be nothing to compete over. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/131 "2020-11-02T03:46:18Z")
We each make our own goals. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/132 "2020-11-02T03:55:04Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > If everyone will, literally everyone will have every kind of alt, the game will lose any kind of goal. There will be nothing to compete over. Um, what? Having multiple alts doesn’t mean that you win with them. There will always be competition and winners and losers. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/133 "2020-11-02T05:06:04Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Educate yourself on velocity of money. No, see. You said. > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > PVE players **build** PVP players their ships and modules **BUILD** Don’t try to move goalposts or derail. You said **BUILD** specifically. So tell me. How does your afk krabbing NPCs in combat anomalies results in you **BUILDING** T2 Blasters for me? ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 5:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/134 "2020-11-02T05:09:52Z")
Thats not goalpost moving, its an abstraction. Besides even me being wrong doesn’t make you right or your argument sound. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 5:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/135 "2020-11-02T05:23:38Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Thats not goalpost moving, its an abstraction. Yet more goalpost moving. > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Besides even me being wrong doesn’t make you right or your argument sound. It means you’re overexaggerating the significance that your afk krabbing has on the game. By trying to lump in your PvE activities (that are mostly only for the benefit of your personal wallet) with that of general industrialists who actively work to produce ships and modules, you’re trying to claim that value for yourself (which you do not deserve). The umbrella of “PvE” is large, but you should at least be honest when all you do is afk krab. Because when all you do is afk krab, **and then you try to argue that your activities build ships and modules for PvP** , it reeks of tumblr levels virtue signalling and “stolen valor”. Know your place, krab, and speak truth to your position in the game. Don’t try to imply that you build modules for PvPers when all you do is farm NPCs for isk every 20 minutes. If you want to prove me wrong, I’d love to see a screenshot of your T2 module production chain. Otherwise, I haven’t seen any item built by you that fuels PvP in EVE Online. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/136 "2020-11-02T06:42:04Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > 100% for the fun of it? You don’t care about the isk at all? Sure I care about the ISK but the main thing is that I find the content fun and challenging. If it wasn’t that then I wouldn’t do it. The challenging part is to complete it without being interrupted as well as progress up in level of difficulty. FYI, when I run missions or exploration sites, I don’t try to minimize time and maximize rewards by blitzing, nor do I cherry pick through wrecks and containers for the best loot. I do full clears in both NPC combat and loot collection which includes salvaging all wrecks as well. ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 7:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/137 "2020-11-02T07:48:39Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > It means you’re overexaggerating the significance that your afk krabbing has on the game. You sound salty. Calm down miner. > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > item built by you that fuels PvP in EVE Online. I do highsec combat exploration. OPE boxes I sell only spawn 200 mil/month of raw ISK into the game. Relax. Here’re a couple of items I _produce_, around 10/2 of them per month. I think it’s nice PVP fuel: [Pithum C-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener](https://zkillboard.com/item/4349/) [Pithum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener](https://zkillboard.com/item/4348/) There’s not much difference between me and T2 production indy guy in a way we influence other players on abstract level. T2 just sells his product by thousands. On abstract level we both turn our time into some items. And we both need this ISK farming guy to be able to exchange results of our _labour_. Plex sellers need this ISK farming guy for ISK to remain relatively cheap, they can buy more stuff per Plex sold. There is a certain danger with unhinged farming ofc, in inflation of ISK mass. But I think you shouldnt fix inflation by cutting income to 30% by DBS and another 50% by ESS on top of it (worst case scenario). PS: If you’re using miner/indy alts as you claim, you’re following _minerals I mine are free_ logic. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 8:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/138 "2020-11-02T08:17:20Z")
I just dont understand this idea that there are only PvP and PvE players exclusively. I dont usually fly anything with weapons fitted, I make my muns doing indy stuff and hauling (putting stuff in organised piles is fun for me) I have fun when people try to kill my ships, and I make fun and profit from ninjing. I know Im not the only one, so why make it a Them and Us dichotomy? Also I was directed to this thread by someone wanting to make a point so I need to ask; Are mineral prices up or down atm? ---
**Author:** ![Induce\_Deadline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/induce_deadline/32/418955_2.png) [@Induce\_Deadline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Induce_Deadline)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 8:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/139 "2020-11-02T08:25:12Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > I just dont understand this idea that there are only PvP and PvE players exclusively. Agreed. I personally rat and rorq mined pre nerf so I could afford to fly caps/supers into combat. I joined this game reading about BR5. I spent years of pve grind with this 1 end goal in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 8:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/140 "2020-11-02T08:41:34Z")
Well, originally I had wanted a carrier, but I gave the idea up long before ever getting one when it became apparent that Id never be able to use one for its intended purpose. I eventually built one, and bought two more for research purposes, but after a couple test flights in Provi I decided ratting in them wasnt for me and sold em for more Cranes and Curses. Good job I did too because shortly after they changed how cynos work pretty much keeping me put of null except for daytripping purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Ranar\_Linyne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ranar_linyne/32/378478_2.png) [@Ranar\_Linyne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ranar_Linyne)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 5:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/148 "2020-11-03T05:01:03Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > they specialize and you don’t. To be fair, we did specialize. ---
**Author:** ![you\_are\_evil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/you_are_evil/32/246754_2.png) [@you\_are\_evil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/you_are_evil)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2020, 10:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/152 "2020-11-03T10:24:38Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > I hear there was good PvP in the Stone Age. First yes, but then there was a buff with the bow against the slingshot, the bronze weapons against the stones, and some individuals got brain upgrades, so everything became totally unbalanced… ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_dorrim_barstorlode/32/361083_2.png) [@ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/160 "2020-11-04T02:16:23Z")
Removed some off topic posts. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/161 "2020-11-04T04:14:23Z")
It could have been worse, we could have posted ponies. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/162 "2020-11-04T17:18:11Z")
Thank you. > [@Xeux](#): > > The Nash equilibrium won’t work because PvP players are playing for fun and the PvE players are just playing for greed. Fun being fun for everyone involved, naturally, because PvPers require other PvPers. This is pretty contrary to the PvE player, who avoids other people unless there’s some co-op to be done … … and even then there’s enough room to reason that they _only_ play with others exactly _because_ otherwise they can’t get the rewards. Worthy of adding is the fact that there must exist lots of PvErs who really love playing with others … and they have their games for that. Those guys aren’t around _here_ though, except maybe if we talk Incursions, a niche activity … though Incursions specifically seem to me like it’s more of a greed thing than anything else, considering that there were plenty of people crying about how lowering the rewards will destroy their communities. These rather misguided folks either seriously believed that money was the common ground for their community _(which would make them rather sad people in real life)_, or just lied through their fingers. Anyhow … I think that the guy above you is either a liar, or completely disconnected from his own reality. I’m not going to quote him, because he doesn’t deserve that. I have no idea how he manages to believe that PvE players _(at least in EVE)_ support symbiotic cooperation outside of scenarios where it’s _required_ to be cooperative. His post has a stench of “inferiority complex”, which would be quite fitting for carebears in general. There’s literally nothing more cooperative than going on a lowsec/nullsec roam where you, as a group, can actually lose stuff. There’s no such level of co-operation for PvErs in EVE. Unlike NPC content, ship combat can always go one way or another. PvE, on the other hand, always ends up the same once it’s figured out. What do you think? > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Edencom … that wasn’t even fun or greed. All you needed to do was warping along a group of people who did all the work and you got rewarded. Of the fleets I saw during the Invasion, a significant portion of these people must have been doing it out of pure greed. When everyone gets a reward just for being around then it’s guaranteed that there’s lots of greedy folks. > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Oh you are a farmer, you are greedy, you are afk menial grinder, you are 100% safe, you are a coward, you are a whiner. I think you’re not seeing this from an encompassing-enough _(ISTHATEVENATERM??)_ perspective. Usually it’s not the PvErs per se who are the problem. @Jonah_Gravenstein is a PvEr and avoids PvP _(which is also a form of PvP but that just further underlines my point)_, but _he’s not a carebear_. I did lots of PvE myself too. I never turned into a carebear, I just did PvE until I felt like this game must have more to offer. It wasn’t the PvPers who started this “war”, if you want to call it. It was the _carebears_. PvPers do PvE as well, PvErs actively PvE and passively PvP (like Jonah), and there’s _carebears_ who not just _hate it_ when people try to PvP them, but also _hate it_ when they have to watch out for people _trying_ to PvP them. There’s a reason why a Jonah is being respected, while a Balos isn’t. Think about who’s actually the problem here. There’s one side that’s inclusive and the other side that’s exclusive. It’s not PvPers not accepting PvErs, it’s PvPers not accepting _carebears_, because _carebears_ are the most intolerant, selfish, dishonest, narcisstic and toxic bunch of assholes you can find. When you tolerate the intolerant … … they _will_ overrun you. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/163 "2020-11-04T17:41:11Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > It wasn’t the PvPers who started this “war”, if you want to call it. It was the _carebears_. PvPers do PvE as well, PvErs actively PvE and passively PvP (like Jonah), and there’s _carebears_ who not just _hate it_ when people try to PvP them, but also _hate it_ when they have to watch out for people _trying_ to PvP them. > > There’s a reason why a Jonah is being respected, while a Balos isn’t. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/a/3a20cbd0772a3d0888698243bbc0c5bfd5563a09.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458/164 "2020-11-05T03:23:06Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > All you needed to do was warping along a group of people who did all the work and you got rewarded. But there was the group of people who did the work, right? That’s the usual problem here with our arguments. Some PVEers play for fun (casuals), some play for greed (carebears), some play for an idea (RP, FC). Some PVPers play for greed (gankers), some play for fun (casual), some play for an idea (warleaders, FC). Everybody is right. Merin is right. Some PVEers do not want to deal with PVP in any shape or form. But is this opinion representative of the majority of PVE players? Idealistic PVPers are just as rare and unrepresentative of the majority of PVP players. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/5/a/5a25ed34f7a482454fbd3cf77fe87196ddc38f3b.jpeg) There, I love this graph so much. - Killers prefer acting on players. I think those are idealistic PVPer. - Socializers prefer interacting with other players. Those are both PVP and PVE players. Interaction being killing, fleeting up, hanging out, trading, etc. - Explorers prefer interacting with the world. That’s challenging PVE, or new PVE, which hasn’t yet been solved. They do the solving. Like T5+ Abyss, Trig World Ark, Drifters etc. - Achievers prefer acting on world. Thats the rest of PVE, casual and solved grind. * * * There’s another great GDC talk by Jason Vandenberghe (Ubisoft, For Honor) [Engines of Play: How Player Motivation Changes Over Time](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg2GndSat1E) I think this talk is fascinating enough to justify the summon: @CCP_Psych @CCP_Rattati @CCP_Dopamine @FC_Convict Can’t stress enough, please watch/listen. Hire him also. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-kick-in-the-face-well-done-ccp/273458.md?page=7)