# \[ARC\] Hope For All Act litigation **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869 "2018-10-17T21:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/41 "2018-10-18T21:02:47Z")
The Rogues aren’t completely autonomous, I would argue its an insect level intelligence, apart from the occasional sentient variety. They are essentially stupid compared to most people, simply talented in certain areas. Point one its not human behavior, point two, they are illegal under CONCORD Directive Omega 15. " It is not known when exactly the Orphyx program took place or what the Orphyx program end goals were due to the heavy censorship of information by [CONCORD](http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=CONCORD) but what is understood is the researchers were using radical new programming techniques alongside the latest cutting edge hardware to create an advanced artificial intelligence drone that seems was intended to operate below the threshold of sentience and thus avoid [Concord directive omega-one-five](http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Concord_directive_omega-one-five)" ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/42 "2018-10-18T21:14:40Z")
> [@Annisir\_Kaugan](#): > > apart from the occasional sentient variety Those are the ones I was talking about. They don’t get rights, either. They aren’t even accorded the rights some cultures give _livestock_, that protect against animal cruelty. And so what if the thing that created them was illegal? ‘You don’t get rights because what you are violates our laws’? I’m sure something similar was said to quite a lot of Matari, at various points. But, you know… let’s remember this: > [@Annisir\_Kaugan](#): > > Its not about things that mimic human behavior **You** mimic human behavior. If someone wants to make the argument that the original Annisir Kaugan died in a training procedure, how can you show that your mind isn’t just an elaborate simulation of his mind? Because it runs on hardware built with a human genome? Look at softclones. Back-ups of our informorph, with no continuity of experience (which, despite the way some like to conflate it, is not the same as continuity of consciousness), stuck into a clone if we die outside the pod. Can you demonstrate that’s not a simulation of the original person? Because any med tech in the cluster can demonstrate that that’s an engineered organism with behavior coded into it by a machine. That softclone didn’t learn anything on its own. It didn’t grow up. It’s running on a backup copy of a snapshot of the human brain, as translated into and then back from, an electronic data storage and retrieval format. We only insist it’s human because it’s _us_. ---
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/43 "2018-10-18T21:25:37Z")
No I am human, I don’t mimic human behavior, that’s just insulting. There is no soul, the original is software driven and running on hardware made by amateurs. So where is the difference. I still have the memories from which my infomorph is derived. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/44 "2018-10-18T21:31:58Z")
Human beings die. Human beings don’t wake up 100LY away 5 seconds later, having been transmitted through a telecommunications network and stored in a databank while a new brain was flash-grown out of reconstituted biomass on an artificial scaffold inside an equally synthetic, empty skull. You want to convince the people out there who’d argue we aren’t human that they’re wrong? _Prove_ you’re not just a simulation, coded onto an artificial blob of reprocessed cadaver-meat by the wonders of Jovian science. I mean, my own response would be to gut one and strangle the next with the first one’s entrails while happily demanding ‘does ths feel like a simulation?’, but you know, that’s me, and I’m a little… _off_… sometimes[1]. * * * 1. I admit, I wouldn’t do that, but the image of it amused me. ---
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/45 "2018-10-18T21:35:43Z")
Its all part of the transhuman experience. I could just as easily argue that some baseliner who spends their time eating chips sat in front of a holo-vid player all day isn’t human. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/46 "2018-10-18T21:36:35Z")
Except that any human _can_ do that. ‘Transhuman’… right away, that’s something other than ‘human’. ---
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/47 "2018-10-18T21:42:26Z")
It doesn’t really matter, we live in an a developing society, so things change. There is a strong argument that some of the primates show human behavior patterns, so are worthy of rights. The current evidence regarding the Triglavians is very much pointing towards artificial sentient AI being an active component of their society. That level of development is currently banned within New Eden but that too could change. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/48 "2018-10-18T21:47:04Z")
Yup. Keep in mind, I _agree_ with you. That doesn’t mean jurisprudence will. Especially not if there’s an element of fear involved… we’re dangerous. Trigs may be even more dangerous. Reclassifying us as ‘engineered organisms’ could give the baseliners more of a feeling of control, and security. Just as I think the Amarr have basically hit the right conclusion (we’re human as anyone else) for the wrong reasons, the Fed _could_ come to the wrong conclusions for the right reasons. BTW: > [@Annisir\_Kaugan](#): > > we live in an a developing society The only ones that aren’t are dead. Just like any other living thing. ---
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/49 "2018-10-18T21:48:20Z")
But that is why ARC is right to pursue this. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/50 "2018-10-18T21:50:01Z")
Of course! Remember, my original statement was that the lower court ruling was something to be worried about. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![James\_Syagrius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_syagrius/32/439868_2.png) [@James\_Syagrius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Syagrius)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/51 "2018-10-19T00:09:31Z")
It’s usually the candy that holds the poison. You are an experienced political operative Ms. Jenneth. You know how considering the source, many will see such a request. I personally think our system can afford to be fettered by the… truth. But times are a-changin. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/52 "2018-10-19T00:30:35Z")
> [@James\_Syagrius](#): > > You are an experienced political operative Ms. Jenneth. I’m … well, my predecessor was quite the forum warrior I think, but … Hm. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/53 "2018-11-26T17:18:26Z")
Pilots; ARC has successfully argued for the unsealing of proceedings on grounds of shareholder interest. While we expect that it will be some time before all motions may be made public, and that much will rely on future legal action, we’re finally in a position to release the initial filings in both suits currently before the business tribunal. I’d like to personally offer an apology to the public for our being unable to provide these in a timely fashion, after [announcing and initiating filings 15th May YC120](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/10th-year-anniversary-of-malkalen-incident/76132/13?u=makoto_priano). Please note that these are not from the public register, but instead release of our initial file copies for ease of reading. The [first suit](https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1i0Rjxo4UlJUnc3LVljRmpBZnQtbndUN1NfdVFhMFFNZlVB) names all those parties materially involved in preserving (or, as the case is, failing to preserve) the quarantine around the Kyonoke Pit, and seeks release of documentation concerning their actions, pursuant to HFAA rules. The [second suit](https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1i0Rjxo4UlJYndlczItVUVTNDJNcEJTZFplME45OVVrYUVV) names those parties responsible for the actions and resources of the Pakera and Kasaras conspiracy, and seeks release of documentation concerning their actions, pursuant to HFAA rules. Please understand that the HFAA _itself_ mandates the release of these documents. For those interested in the history behind the Kyonoke Crisis, the mysteries remaining, and the subsequent legal action attempting to provide for compliance with interstellar law, [please reference this handy archive](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-kyonoke-history-repository/99715). (edit: I’ve been advised by legal to remind readers that these constitute general statements, that the matters are more precisely handled in the relevant filings, and to reiterate that our position is that of one merely seeking full compliance with interstellar law as it stands.) ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Demetirus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_demetirus/32/227923_2.png) [@Marcus\_Demetirus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Demetirus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/54 "2018-11-27T22:40:41Z")
So, I’m not sure if this is relevant or not, but when I became a Capsuleer, I received a license from the Gallente government that grants me, and I quote “fundamental human rights…” So I am curious as to why Capsuleers are suddenly thinking they are going t obe classified as, well, non-human… Did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/55 "2018-11-27T23:14:48Z")
> [@Marcus\_Demetirus](#): > > I received a license from the Gallente government that grants me, and I quote “fundamental human rights…” So have about 40% of all fedo. A guarantee of human rights from the Federation isn’t worth the paper it’s not printed on, in the other three empires. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Demetirus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_demetirus/32/227923_2.png) [@Marcus\_Demetirus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Demetirus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/56 "2018-11-28T16:46:07Z")
Don’t the other Empires offer something similar? ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/57 "2018-11-28T17:51:47Z")
The graduation documents essentially both acknowledge and try to whitewash that independent Capsuleers are non-citizens from a legal standpoint. In a very real way, we’re subject to CONCORD jurisdiction and laws, and beyond that to a variable and uncertain degree subject to local or regional law and police practices. However, this isn’t the matter at question here. The matter is effectively whether the convention signatories are bound by laws they themselves promulgated under the terms of the Yulai Convention. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/58 "2018-11-28T17:59:33Z")
But also whether or not we, as entities of legally-questionable humanity, have standing to hold them to account. We’re subject to CONCORD’s jurisdiction, but are we CONCORD ‘citizens’, or just semi-autonomous biotech weapons CONCORD is allowing to continue engaging in self-development? ---
**Author:** ![Shintoko\_Akahoshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shintoko_akahoshi/32/362016_2.png) [@Shintoko\_Akahoshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shintoko_Akahoshi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/59 "2018-11-28T19:14:08Z")
You see, this is where it really gets interesting. If the nation you come from don’t consider you citizens anymore - _especially_ if they don’t consider you really human anymore - then the ARC actions set an interesting precedent. ARC as a research institute\* is made up of capsuleers who have just established the precedent that they are recognized as legal entities within the jurisdiction of the Federation. My own thoughts on this, of course, is that we ourselves are free to form our own nations. In a sense, each of us makes up our own mobile nation state. It’s not a bad comparison, especially when you consider that the poorest of us is still wealthy beyond the means of almost any baseliner. \*And for God’s sake, why did you have to name both the research institute and the nationalist alliance ‘ARC’? It’s just _begging_ for the two to be conflated. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say it was intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869/60 "2018-11-28T19:26:17Z")
‘Nationalist alliance’ isn’t exactly a term I’d use, and I definitely think we should chat about the history in a less public setting. That said, as a very brief discussion, the ‘alliance’ is a placeholder to prevent a random capsuleer with too much time from grabbing the name. The moment we achieved any amount of notoriety, a name grab became an increasing possibility. Originally, we just referred to the loose association as ‘expeditionary forces,’ then ‘the consortium’ and then on the announcement of the Upwell Consortium the full and formal name was decided on in discussion with the coordination group at that time. As for the ‘each capsuleer is a nation-state unto themselves’ argument, it’s-- hm. I’ve always been wary of overly adventurous readings of trans-human or post-human philosophy. Clearly, the transition from a baseline to an infomorph society is a significant one not without some dangers. However, hasn’t humanity’s ever-changing circumstance always been a product of our tool use? Haven’t we always been, in some sense, transhuman, becoming something new? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arc-hope-for-all-act-litigation/113869.md?page=4)