# Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2025, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516 "2025-01-08T02:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 11:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/190 "2025-01-13T11:29:19Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > The real reason that no one goes (or desires to go) to war is that it’s always a losing proposition. You mean that it’s a negative sum game : competition always makes losers, while collaboration makes winners(it’s a positive sum game, even though the winner takes less than when competing). That’s why we have blue doughnuts. And that’s why people leave the game when wardecced. > [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Even if you win - what do you win? It’s a sandbox, don’t judge other people. If bragging is everything in their life, then be it. > [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > If structures assisted me in that endeavour I’d have one (even with more risk). But they don’t. Structures allow to reduce the cost/time of industry, and place moons. So they are supposedly assisting you. In reality they are so easy to destroy, that you need to be present all the time to evacuate when a bunch of idiots decide to destroy it, setting you back for the time remaining on jobs you started. What’s more with the recent changes on industry cost it’s just not worth installing a raitaru in a low index-system anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/191 "2025-01-13T11:40:33Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > What do you otherwise win anyway ? What is the point of playing _any_ game unless there’s some element or potential of being ‘better’ than the average player ? People decry ‘bragging rights’, but take that away and there really is nothing left. There is a whole thread asking what winning is to each person. That thread proves that not everyone in Eve has the need to destroy any and every ship that they can just to feel validated. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 11:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/192 "2025-01-13T11:45:00Z")
> [@Distaine](#): > > There’s only one way I take this game seriously again. Removal of war Hqs and structure reqs for war. The rest of the details are secondary. Thats about I have left to say about it. You’re in luck! There’s an entire area dedicated to being able to attack anyone with or without a structure and Concord won’t try to stop you! It’s called Low and Null sec! No structures required! ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/193 "2025-01-13T12:46:54Z")
> [@Distaine](#): > > There’s only one way I take this game seriously again. Removal of war Hqs and structure reqs for war. The rest of the details are secondary. Thats about I have left to say about it. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but wardecs will never go back to the old system where this was the case. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 1:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/194 "2025-01-13T13:01:24Z")
They dont need to. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/195 "2025-01-13T13:05:06Z")
And it would be a really, really bad idea… ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/196 "2025-01-13T13:56:32Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > That thread proves that not everyone in Eve has the need to destroy any and every ship that they can just to feel validated. Every ship that is destroyed…YOU mined the ore that made the ships that destroyed it. You are as up to your neck in the carnage of EVE as anyone else. So spare us the sanctimonious BS…as the entire EVE economy _depends_ on destruction for your ore to have any value. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/197 "2025-01-13T14:46:55Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > as the entire EVE economy _depends_ on destruction for your ore to have any value. Actually, the ‘entire EVE economy’ _depends_ on having **active players** in the game. _Destruction_ can come from anywhere. Hell, NPCs can cause as much high-sec destruction as wardecs; Trig invasion showed that. Using “EVE _depends_ on destruction” as the justification for ridiculous abuse of wardecs is like trying to ‘stimulate the economy’ by burning down factories and shooting workers. The destruction caused by wardecs is pathetic, since only 20% or less of wars result in even a **single kill per day** (as per CCP’s own stats, see: [War, War Sometimes Changes | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/war-war-sometimes-changes) ). And as my own quick review showed, as much as 90% of current wars don’t produce any kills at all. In fact **all** high sec destruction in total isn’t even that significant to the economy. In December of 2024, here was the destruction breakdown by security sector: | Security | Killmails | ISK | % ISK | PvP Kills | PvP ISK | % ISK | Notes | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | **High** | 59,355 | 9.23t | 12.3% | 24,834 | 7.31t | 9.8% | | | **Low** | 135,388 | 19.45t | 26.0% | 128,933 | 18.51t | 24.7% | | | **WH** | 41,317 | 9.07t | 12.1% | 33,491 | 8.36t | 11.1% | | | **Null** | 196,510 | 32.61t | 43.6% | 179,446 | 28.74t | 38.4% | | | **Abyss** | 9,075 | 2.32t | 3.1% | 175 | 42.05b | \<0.001% | Non-Pochven? | | **Pochven** | 11,547 | 2.15t | 2.9% | | | | Region 10000070 | | | | | | | | | | | **Total** | 453,192 | 74.83t | 100% | 366,879 | 62.96t | 84.1% | No Pochven PvP | Disclaimers: Quick grab from zKill Advanced menu, not 100% accurate or complete. zKill doesn’t have a separate Advanced Search option for Pochven so I used some potentially inaccurate URL tricks to estimate them. The numbers from that seemed low to me, and no separation of Total vs. PvP, but CBA refining it more than that. The deniers gonna deny, anyway. * * * **ALL** highsec PvP totals only 10% of the destruction in game. And wardecs make up only a tiny fraction, probably less than 1%. It’s a case where the “justification” (EVE _needs_ that **1%** of destruction to **drive the economy** ) is totally and ridiculously out of proportion to a game mechanic which drives thousand of players per year out of the game. EVE needs **active players**. It can easily do without the pathetic percentage of Wardec destruction. However the **ideal** goal will be to find a way to keep some of both. (Edit 1: table re-formatted for clarity and added %ISK columns.) ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 2:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/198 "2025-01-13T14:50:22Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Every ship that is destroyed…YOU mined the ore that made the ships that destroyed it. You are as up to your neck in the carnage of EVE as anyone else. So spare us the sanctimonious BS…as the entire EVE economy _depends_ on destruction for your ore to have any value. What does that have to do with war decs? Absolutely nothing. 1. The ore could go to ships for new people that would have been chased off. 2. You could stop all ore sales and it wouldnt affect my gameplay at all. I have a lot to do. I mine, i transport, I explore, I do industry, I do PI, i do security missions, etc… There is one 0.5 I found with the toughest rats I’ve ever seen. Crook guards or something like that. I tangled with them for a while. It was fun! Hell sometimes, I’ll travel all day just because I saw something interesting on Eve map in some distant corner of the galaxy and want to go check it out. Recently, my corp leader found a wormhole that led to a 0.5 system. The cool thing about it was that the only stargate in and out of that 0.5 led to null sec space. We mined some pyroxeres and went home. That stuff can be tough to find. We would have explored more, but the wormhole was collapsing. Mining is now the thing i spend the least amount of time on. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/199 "2025-01-13T15:09:00Z")
“we need more cops for security, so criminals are a good thing because they make us have more cops”. What a complete troll. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/200 "2025-01-13T15:21:16Z")
It is really refreshing to finally see someone in these discussions sticking to facts and arguments. Thank you for that. The current core problem (funny wording ^^) of wardecs is that there is a finanical motivation to just wardec as much available targets as possible, because the drop of a single core from whatever station already covers the cost of the wardec multiple times over and every additional loot or kill is just a bonus on top of it. According to EVEs website the wardec system should be, and i quote: > [@](#): > > a way to settle disputes between player entities (player corporations or alliances) that are eligible to conduct formal wars. Source: [https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004152745-Wars](https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004152745-Wars) But that isn’t how the system is being used. There are no disputes, conflicts or ways to “settle” or any kind of relation between aggressor and target. It’s just a mathematical calculation to grind cores for profit. And this point needs to be adressed, groups should have options to experiment with structure management, use them as a corporation identity home, as a group-goal to save up for and build or as base of operations without instantly landing on a target list for easy legal robbery. This could be easily achieved if CCP would be willing to redesign the Upwell Stations quite a bit (which are actually a main reason for many problems in the game currently), but I can’t see that happening any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/201 "2025-01-13T15:22:12Z")
| Column 1 | Column 2 | Column 3 | Column 4 | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | **High** : | Killmails: 59,355 ISK: 9.23t | PvP: Killmails: 24,834 ISK: 7.31t | | | **Low** : | Killmails: 135,388 ISK: 19.45t | PvP: Killmails: 128,933 ISK: 18.51t | | | **WH** : | Killmails: 41,317 ISK: 9.07t | Killmails: 33,491 ISK: 8.36t | | | **Null** : | Killmails: 196,510 ISK: 32.61t | Killmails: 179,446 ISK: 28.74t | | | **Abyss:** | Killmails: 9,075 ISK: 2.32t | Killmails: 175 ISK: 42.05b (Non-Pochven?) | | | **Pochven** : | Kills: 11,547 ISK: 2.15t | | | **Total Killmails** : 453,192 ISK: 74.83t Yeah, it still doesn’t really look great… I tried. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/202 "2025-01-13T15:24:57Z")
```auto titlea|titleb|titlec --|--|-- row1a|row1b|row1c row2a|row2b|row2c ``` | titlea | titleb | titlec | | --- | --- | --- | | row1a | row1b | row1c | | row2a | row2b | row2c | ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/203 "2025-01-13T15:32:59Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > This could be easily achieved if CCP would be willing to redesign the Upwell Stations quite a bit (which are actually a main reason for many problems in the game currently), but I can’t see that happening any time soon. They could had smaller structures that would not be war eligible nor core dependant, while not disputing a local resource like a moon. The issue is that would allow corporations at war to use such a structure with an alt corporation, to have staging in a space occupied by at-war corporation. This may be solved by having those structure not have a modifiable ACL, therefore only corp members could dock/rep/be tethered/etc. . Actually I think raitarus and astrahus should be those ones : don’t require core in HS, do not make eligible to war. Athanors should still be, as they lock out a moon access. Unless you prevent them from fitting a drill. Also, those structure should have more restrictive placement range so that they don’t prevent other structures from being placed close to gates, and therefore should not be placed on moon mining location. In short : - smaller structures have reduced ACL : only their owner corporation’s members can dock, use services, get tethered. Also they can’t become the source/destination of a courier contract unless the acceptor is in that corporation. - smaller structures have an increased minimum distance to place them (times ten compared to other structures). They can’t be placed on limiting spots, like moon mining location. - smaller structures can’t fit drill (which anyhow is unusable because they can’t be placed on moon mining location) - smaller structures do not make their corporation war deccable - smaller structures don’t require a core anymore in HS. (not mandatory. maybe bad) ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/204 "2025-01-13T15:49:40Z")
| Sec | PvE kills | PvE ISK | PvP kills | PvP ISK | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | **High** : | 59,355 | 9.23t | 24,834 | 7.31t | | **Low** : | 135,388 | 19.45t | 128,933 | 18.51t | | **WH** : | 41,317 | 9.07t | 33,491 | 8.36t | | **Null** : | 196,510 | 32.61t | 179,446 | 28.74t | | **Abyss:** | 9,075 | 2.32t | 175 | 42.05b (Non-Pochven?) | | **Pochven** : | 11,547 | 2.15t | | | | | Kills | ISK | | --- | --- | --- | | **Total** : | 453,192 | 74.83t | ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/205 "2025-01-13T15:50:46Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > groups should have options to experiment with structure management, use them as a corporation identity home, as a group-goal to save up for and build or as base of operations without instantly landing on a target list for easy legal robbery. Good point. I’ll add “ **Give smaller groups the chance to experiment with structures** ” to the list of design goals. (Table from previous post has been fixed, guys. Thanks for the help, I do know how to do them, just didn’t have time to do the fiddly table setup earlier.) ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/206 "2025-01-13T15:53:11Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > ALL highsec PvP totals only 10% of the destruction in game. The usual dishonest arguing I’ve gotten used to. In the first place, in terms of actual kills it is 13%. And given that there are 6 areas in which kills could occur…then if you divide 100% by 6 you get 16.66% So the rate for highsec is actually only a few percent off what you’d _expect_ compared to an average across 6 areas. Trying to present it as ‘just 10%’ is dishonest. But par for the course, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/207 "2025-01-13T15:56:35Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > What does that have to do with war decs? Absolutely nothing. Your ore makes the very ships that fight those wardecs. Gosh, you are like some arms manufacturer trying to pretend that war somewhere that is using your bullets is ’ nothing to do with me, guv ! ’ You are part of a war economy whose sole end purpose is war and destruction. That is what all the mining and manufacturing is _for_. You can’t just pretend you are in some separate reality and war has nothing to do with you…as you are up to your neck in it. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/209 "2025-01-13T16:11:05Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Your ore makes the very ships that fight those wardecs. Gosh, you are like some arms manufacturer trying to pretend that war somewhere that is using your bullets is ’ nothing to do with me, guv ! ’ Why do you keep calling it “my ore”? And why do you insist on blaming me for war decs? I’m beginning to think that you have no concept of reading comprehension. Even if I stopped all mining completely today until the end of time, it would have no effect on anything in Eve. High Sec destruction is 10% of total destruction in this game. TEN PERCENT. You may want to find a math teacher to explain that to you. The amount of ore I sell on the open market would amount to an estimated 0.0000000000% of all ore sold in this game each day. Ask your math teacher about that too. War Decs and me have nothing in common. Ever. And stop acting all big and bad about your killboard. You’ve basically got nothing bigger than a destroyer in almost a year. In that year’s time, you’ve only gotten one kill in low sec. See? If you make fun of someone else’s kill board, people are going to do the same to you. Killing shuttles and frigates in 0.9 while in garbage ships doesn’t make you scary. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2025, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/210 "2025-01-13T16:13:33Z")
Don’t feed the troll, he is now using only personal attacks, makes it clear he’s here to sabotage any constructive discussion. Just ignore his nonsense. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=11)