# Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2025, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516 "2025-01-08T02:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 10:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/291 "2025-01-15T22:25:47Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’s OK, I know you struggle to understand what’s actually been said. Its your usual tactic to pretend someone has not understood. But I have. You forget that ( unlike you ) I actually _do_ wardecs and have actual experience. The last time I undocked wasn’t 2017. So…lets unravel your claims… > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Literally everything I’ve said is about increasing risk and defender participation. The station owner has already maximised the risk by the very act of placing the station in the first place. Oh, you forgot that bit. You know…the ‘don’t undock what you can’t afford to lose’ bit. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You offset the losses by offering potential rewards for interesting activities and giving players choices. That’s how games work. But they already _had_ their choice. To place a station or to not do so. You want them to be _rewarded_ for the folly of placing a structure their 3 man corp cannot hope to defend ? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > They stop working when you force players to suffer loss No personal responsibility in any of this ? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’s broken and stated by CCP to be a bad result. It’s ‘broken’ because the system allows people who haven’t a hope in hell of defending their structure to place one in the first place. _Of course_ people are going to bash those. Why wouldn’t they ? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/292 "2025-01-15T22:30:10Z")
> [@Hatch\_Nasty](#): > > Neither you, me, nor your Aunt Tilly can wardec Safety. (for example) no matter how much we’re willing to pay. That is a symptom of a broken system. Right. That’s why my system would cause them to be war-eligible. And by your own statements, anyone who doesn’t want to be war-eligible is happy to sit in an NPC corp. > [@Hatch\_Nasty](#): > > The only option I want to remove is the option to sit in a non-NPC corp and be war ineligible. That change was a hamfisted blunt instrument that never should have been implemented. Right. So, CCP and other open-PvP MMORPG devs have already proven and stated that everyone attackable everywhere is terrible for the game. So you want to make it even worse. Well done. > [@Hatch\_Nasty](#): > > complete redevelopment of the entire wardec system. It represents probably hundreds if not thousands of developer hours Dude, seriously, please don’t try to tell a programmer what programming is. I could code this myself in 2-3 months. It’s a couple interface changes, a copy-paste-edit of Air Opportunities, some Tracking copy-pastes, some Standings code copy-paste, and a few changes to Corp wallets. And some simple calculations at war end. If CCP couldn’t turn this out in under a month then they need to hang up their keyboards. But let’s give them 2 months, so they have time to test it on SISI. > [@Hatch\_Nasty](#): > > Sweeping, systemic changes like the one you’ve proposed are exactly the sort …of thing you introduce when you have systemic problems in your core system. The ideas are new so they seem “sweeping and systemic” to you, but they’re really quite minimal changes. The _effects_ are sweeping because it totally shifts the Wardec mechanic from “serial abuse of the very many by the very few with near zero risk” to “affordable wars with both sides having a viable shot at winning”. That’s a big change, but not a bad one. Don’t be scared. It’ll be fun, I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Hatch\_Nasty](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hatch_nasty/32/512820_2.png) [@Hatch\_Nasty](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hatch_Nasty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 10:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/293 "2025-01-15T22:41:18Z")
> [@Hatch\_Nasty](#): > > complete redevelopment of the entire wardec system. It represents probably hundreds if not thousands of developer hours > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Dude, seriously, please don’t try to tell a programmer what programming is. I could code this myself in 2-3 months. Thank you for making my point. 40hrs \* 12 weeks = 480hrs. (i.e. “hundreds of hours”). > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > And some simple calculations at war end. TBH, at this point, I don’t think I’d trust you with simple calculations… Look, I can see you’re butthurt about me poking holes in your 27-step process to crack an egg. If I’d known you’d be so fragile about criticism, I wouldn’t have bothered replying (and I certainly won’t make that mistake _ever_ again). But at this point, I think I’ve had all the interaction with you that I care to. Have a nice whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/294 "2025-01-15T22:43:19Z")
High-sec wardecs will never work until you apply similar conditions to Faction Warfare, ie: **standings**. This prevents “day-trippers” (null-sec, etc.) from getting involved as their individual (and averaged) Empire standings would prevent wardecs from going forward. No “skin in the game” = no seal clubbing. Also note that you need to implement something similar with standings to be able to deploy structures in high-sec as well. An average of 5.0 standings with that Empire to deploy medium structures in that Empire space (only) and 9.0 standings with that Empire for large structures in that Empire space (only). With this in-place you could then relax the wardec conditions of eligibility (at least from the target perspective - the attacker still needs to have a structure). ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/295 "2025-01-15T22:59:37Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Wardec corps almost exclusively declare war against targets they know cannot effectively fight back. It’s basically just legalized ganking so they can boost their killboards and maybe score some loot. All while sneering about the “carebears who refuse to fight”… but if anyone actually organizes resistance and fights back meaningfully, the wardec corp just docks up and waits for them to go away. Gosh…as a wardeccer I have to say this is 99% a complete fairy tale you have made up. It bears no resemblance whatever to reality. I’ve encountered numerous situations where members of the wardec fleet wanted ‘more of a fight’. Nobody’s ‘sneering’ anything. And in fact most wardeccers _want_ resistance as otherwise the whole endeavour can be somewhat boring. That’s what actually happens. But as you’ve never been in a wardec fleet…you wouldn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/296 "2025-01-15T23:03:26Z")
I think most wardeccers cast a wide net - hoping for that one diamond of a good fight amongst the rubble. I’m sure deliberate ‘seal clubbing’ happens as well, but I don’t think this is exclusively the case with all wardeccers. At least under the current system. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/297 "2025-01-15T23:07:44Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Also note that you need to implement something similar with standings to be able to deploy structures in high-sec as well. An average of 5.0 standings with that Empire to deploy medium structures in that Empire space (only) and 9.0 standings with that Empire for large structures in that Empire space (only). I’m against anything that forces PvE on people to enable some PvP activity. There’s too much of that already. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/298 "2025-01-15T23:09:26Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > I’m against anything that forces PvE on people to enable some PvP activity. There’s too much of that already. Sorry, but them’s need to be the breaks if you want to PvP in a primarily PvE region. If it’s good enough for FW - it’s good enough for wardecs. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/299 "2025-01-15T23:17:26Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Sorry, but them’s need to be the breaks if you want to PvP in a primarily PvE region. If it’s good enough for FW - it’s good enough for wardecs. Noooo…PvE ( especially faction war ) is supposed to be a _stepping stone_ to PvP… “to offer players a stepping-stone into player-vs-player (PvP) gameplay”…as the Eve Wiki says. It is a stepping stone, not a _gatekeeping_ exercise as you’d have it. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/300 "2025-01-15T23:27:36Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > It is a stepping stone, not a _gatekeeping_ exercise as you’d have it. What I proposed is the same stepping stone. You want to wardec - fine. You first have to have halfway decent standings with the Empires that you want to wardec (aka: PvP) within. If you don’t have or can’t maintain those standings, well - sucks to be you (no wardecs). Since most of the eligibility requirements for war targets have been removed (only the attackers need one structure), this is a fair tradeoff. There is thus some “give and take”, ie: • You have to have decent standings to deploy a structure (no standings, no structure) • You have to have excellent standings to deploy a large structure • You have to have a structure to wardec (ero, you need decent standings to start and maintain a war) ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/301 "2025-01-15T23:33:13Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > What I proposed is the same stepping stone. You want to wardec - fine. You first have to have halfway decent standings with the Empires that you want to wardec (aka: PvP) within. Nope. I’d cancel my subscription if that were ever introduced. There’s simply no way I’d put up with any PvP being gatekept behind some PvE activity. This is supposed to be a sandbox…and I’m already tired of all the CCP ‘content’ that makes it anything but. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/302 "2025-01-15T23:35:36Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Nope. I’d cancel my subscription if that were ever introduced. I hate to burst your bubble, but probably 90% of the activity in this game is first and foremost - PvE. Ratting, mining, PI, industry, trade - all PvE. Only a very small % of players make their income solely from PvP - a much higher % PLEX their account and the vast majority PvE for income. What are you doing in EVE right now? I’m hauling minerals… Unless we’re talking about the Tornados haplessly locking me on the Jita undock, in which case it’s PvE with a poor attempt (by others) at PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/303 "2025-01-15T23:37:54Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > What are you doing in EVE right now? I’m hauling minerals… I’m setting up a Talos…for encounters with people hauling minerals. ‘Income’ ? Bah… ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/304 "2025-01-15T23:39:19Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > I’m setting up a Talos…for encounters with people hauling minerals. Touché. Even in PvP you’re bound to lose stuff. So either you have a huge wallet to dip into (swipe) -or- you need some kind of income. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/305 "2025-01-15T23:42:02Z")
Massive wallet. Potentially one of the richest people in EVE…but sensible enough to only bring in what I need at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/306 "2025-01-15T23:42:33Z")
“Dude, have you seen my Python?” :fedo: ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/307 "2025-01-15T23:44:20Z")
You gonna add owning a python as a requirement for wardecs as well ? I mean…Kezrai has already added all but the kitchen sink. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2025, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/308 "2025-01-15T23:45:09Z")
I was replying to the “potentially one of” comment. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 12:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/309 "2025-01-16T00:45:25Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Well yes, they’re possible under today’s system. But today’s system allows you to wardec them for 100million. You want to make it more expensive. More expensive? You mean a billion ISK each Wardec? Keep in mind how much ISK per day large corps make even in High Sec. They can afford a lot to harass a smaller corp. Especially if, like you suggested, each time they wardec, the smaller corp has to also pay a warbond. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 1:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/310 "2025-01-16T01:22:29Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > Especially if, like you suggested, each time they wardec, the smaller corp has to also pay a warbond. Clarification: If the War Wallet is done correctly, then each entity one needs one War Bond at a time. When any given war concludes, any losses are deducted from the War Bond, and the War Bond is either auto-refilled from the War Wallet, or the corp suffers War Debt until the WB is refilled. There is no need to post multiple War Bonds. As for what you’re replying to, that’s a response to @Hatch_Nasty 's notion that all war problems could be fixed simply by making them much more expensive. Or leaving them the same as now, if the corps happen to be equal size. Which addresses _none_ of the problems with wars, except for mass wardeccing. But you should take that up with him if you think it’s a good or bad idea. And as you say, high ISK costs aren’t really a barrier to some corps. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=14) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=16)