# Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2025, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516 "2025-01-08T02:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2025, 11:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/86 "2025-01-11T23:53:30Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > too many people who think their opinion is the only correct one One of the reasons I stick to using evidence and data-based posts is to avoid the whole “he-said she-said” runaround many posters do. There is a ton of data and support that Wardec style PvP is not just bad but _terrible_ for a game. And it’s not like I didn’t just literally quote CCP (who has all the data) _saying_ it’s terrible, and again, literally _asking_ for a path or suggestions to re-write Wardec mechanics. > [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Just to be clear, the top 5 groups dominating 75% of all high-sec wardecs doesn’t seem like it’s working correctly at face value. I suspect that since Gloria is one of the people who’s not only been abusing this mechanic but also constantly bragging about ‘their’ killboard (which is actually the wardec corps KB) as a result, they’re a bit biased. So it seems unlikely they’ll be interested in a re-write intended to correct the worst of the abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2025, 11:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/87 "2025-01-11T23:53:35Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > When people start advocating ‘solutions’ that have _never_ been part of the game…for example using terms like ‘non consensual PvP’, or hinting at PvE-ers being able to dissociate themselves from attack by PvP-ers. A lot of these so-called solutions are not just minor fixes but fundamental changes to the very nature of the game. PvP implies at least some ability to fight back. Right now it’s more like PvD (player vs. ducks). Most wardecs are so far removed from being a 1-sided fight that it’s not even funny (hence the “ducks in a barrel” analogy). ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2025, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/88 "2025-01-11T23:55:38Z")
> [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > and it seems no one wants to force an even playing field in the realm of Empire Building. I join a game in which there’s already vast empires with trillions of ISK and scores of systems and I have 5000 ISK and a Venture. It’s already the most uneven playing field imaginable right from the get go. Why, after 21 years, is anyone suddenly concerned about level playing fields ? ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2025, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/89 "2025-01-11T23:55:46Z")
Kill reports are possible one of (if not the worse) implementations in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2025, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/90 "2025-01-11T23:56:47Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Why, after 21 years, is anyone suddenly concerned about level playing fields ? It hasn’t even been remotely level for the past few years. If we were still adding 10-15k active concurrent players every year it would be an entirely different issue. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/91 "2025-01-12T00:00:50Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > There’s a difference between talking about problems and inventing them. So, do you have a Gloria Exercitius’ Ministry of Truth certified list of problems that can be talked about and another of those that have to be avoided because they were just invented by nasty ill-thinkers? I mean, the first iteration of wardecs was _so bad_ that even CCP had to pull the plug after they finally realized how much customers they lost from it. I was there when they did it, I remember it, it was awful and tbh CCP took surprisingly long to realize this simple truth. The new one is _a bit_ better, but still ridiculously onesided and if you had taken your time and read the linked articles that @Kezrai_Charzai posted earlier then you would have a chance to realize _how much damage_ it does to the game by constantly frustrating a huge majority for pleasing a tiny miniority. If that is your idea of “inventing a problem”… ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/92 "2025-01-12T00:01:50Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Gloria Exercitius’ Ministry of Truth lol, that gave me a chuckle - thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/93 "2025-01-12T00:03:24Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Kill reports are possible one of (if not the worse) implementations in the game. Well, there I’d agree…but probably not for the same reasons. The notion of a ‘Combat Log’ ( which is what it is actually called ) that only records final shot or highest damage is utterly silly as it thus does not record _all_ ‘combat’. It is thus not a ‘combat log’ at all. Just as silly is that this ‘combat log’ records if I get killed by an NPC…but not vice versa. Or one gets the crazy situation where someone who got just 1 DPS damage on a target and Concord or faction police got all the rest can be recorded as a ‘solo kill’…lol. The ‘combat log’ is not fit for purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/94 "2025-01-12T00:06:53Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Well, there I’d agree…but probably not for the same reasons. Actually, I’m pretty much on the same page with you there. What you describe is the root cause of most killboard padding (if you awarded points based on the actual damage by participants most players would have a shadow of their prized kill to loss ratio). Anyway, sorry to take the thread a bit off-topic. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled debate… ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/95 "2025-01-12T00:09:21Z")
I think this is irrelevant to the discussion so far. My point was, that wardecs were supposed to help null groups keep fighting in HS, but they were mostly used as free kill system, and were thus _in effect_ bad for the game. With structures (2016 ?) wardecs also allowed to remove a structure, which is only useful for moon mining, as you are not conquering a space with structures. Still it makes sense for entities already at war in NS, so that they can hinder enemy logistics (but within alt online anyway, is that really important ?). And then (when structures were required for wars) it was used solely for the sake of bullying people who could not defend their structure because not paying to the local bully, in HS. Basically making wars another seal clubbing. Especially after the adding of cores. So the issue with wardecs is not how they are supposed to be used, but like most things in Eve, how they can be abused. And how bad this abuse is for the game. So to start with, the question is : who should be able to use the wardec system, and against who ? If it’s just “big multiboxing bullies who can’t get their PP hard without killing defenseless players”, then of course the idea is bad to start with. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/4/9/049dabdc36d62bbe33aa928465e67f512e30c6ac.png) (the interesting part is the green dots, which are the average daily kills) ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/96 "2025-01-12T00:10:13Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > So, do you have a Gloria Exercitius’ Ministry of Truth certified list of problems that can be talked about and another of those that have to be avoided because they were just invented by nasty ill-thinkers? Probably the same length as the list of invented problems that I am not allowed to say are invented problems 🙂 Plus I never said wardecs were perfect and have even agreed to and suggested some changes. I’m largely responding to people who seem to think highsec wardecs and ganking should just be eliminated entirely. > [@Syzygium](#): > > hen you would have a chance to realize _how much damage_ it does to the game by constantly frustrating a huge majority for pleasing a tiny miniority. An **absurd** complaint as the very nature of predator vs prey is precisely that. There’s a tiny minority of lions and millions of wildebeest. You won’t miss 10,000 wildebeest but you will certainly miss 10,000 lions as there’d no longer be an ecosystem. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/97 "2025-01-12T00:11:10Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > (the interesting part is the green dots, which are the average daily kills) What do the blue and red dots represent? Any chance you have the graph just for high-sec? (if this includes other regions, that is) ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/98 "2025-01-12T00:14:04Z")
It’s written on the bottom. It’s average and median value. This is important for ships that can be blinged, as a high average value but low median means that most high value ships were blinged a lot. Like if you have 3 kills of 1, 1 and 100 isk , the average is 102/3 = 34 but the median is 1. So that’s not important for structures. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/5/3/7/537e5e39a414a516335084fb97a33ca888e4b1a0.png) hmm maybe it’s more clear by month ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/2/c/02cd10eead722fa202d2072d6b46655a7a3ba652.png) ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/99 "2025-01-12T00:16:02Z")
So is this high-sec only? ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/100 "2025-01-12T00:16:19Z")
no, this is for the whole game, from the MER data. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/101 "2025-01-12T00:17:01Z")
It would be curious to see just what high-sec structure losses are. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/102 "2025-01-12T00:17:58Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > An **absurd** complaint as the very nature of predator vs prey is precisely that. There’s a tiny minority of lions and millions of wildebeest. You won’t miss 10,000 wildebeest but you will certainly miss 10,000 lions as there’d no longer be an ecosystem. Except the game isn’t a Savannah Simulator. If you want to be a lion, you wouldn’t linger in HS, protected from any outside interference by a magic CONCORD shield, picking targets that will most likely not be able to muster a defense. Those animals you refer to that live in shelters they haven’t even built themelves while preying on easy targets to chew up as a group… thats _rats_. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/103 "2025-01-12T00:18:21Z")
I may be able to do that, but the issue is that I need to track historical truesec of systems that were moved into pochven. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/104 "2025-01-12T00:20:06Z")
I bet there’s some **really** interesting data there. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 12:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/105 "2025-01-12T00:21:19Z")
data are only as interesting as you want to make propaganda out of them. The second issue is that the aggregate requires a join on tables that are on a separate DB. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=6)