# Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2025, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516 "2025-01-08T02:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/146 "2025-01-12T13:56:05Z")
The discussion here isn’t about PvP. It’s about poorly designed game mechanics creating results that the **owners of the game** don’t intend, don’t like, and want to change. It’s about changing systems to something that is less massively harmful to the game. You’re flailing around trying to find any deflection possible to make it about something else, but CCP was pretty clear on it: Wardecs aren’t achieving what they want, they **are** driving players away from the game, and they **are** abused consistently and massively by a very small number of players. You’re one of the abusers, so it stands to reason you refuse to acknowledge what **CCP clearly stated in black and white**. But your continual refusal to accept the truth of any facts you don’t like doesn’t _change_ those facts. They still have to be dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 2:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/147 "2025-01-12T14:13:11Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Noobs aren’t in corps. They don’t own stations. They aren’t part of the Wardec scene. Some are in corps, and some joined a corp to be wardecced in the first days - and then left the corp. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > And the analysis they did? “Players who’ve been ganked are _slightly_ more likely to stay than one who haven’t.” Pardon me, what sort of numbers does ‘slightly’ imply? Does it take into account the fact that many of those players who are more adventurous at the start are probably alts or re-starts of existing players using a different email? That’s the actual analyzis made by a CCP dev about those data (linked to the timestamp) : [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/b/9b58f56e23e782e38e54b390edd8392104b34c46.jpeg "EVE Fanfest 2015: Data Science behind EVE") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-jfvjMoe9Y&t=1153) CCP did not “prove” that ganking was good for the game. They tried to observe un-actionable variable to find a pattern that would validate that ganking hurts, but they could not. But the absence of proof is not the proof of the absence. And the dev (CCP Quant, data scientist) supports your point just before, when he says that people sticking to the game after being killed can as much be an effect of them already enjoying the game. Also, mandatory : don’t feed the troll. He is now only making ad hominem after having based all his posts on fallacious arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/148 "2025-01-12T14:54:40Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The discussion here isn’t about PvP. Ah, the invariable bait and switch ‘this thread isn’t about…’ after its been about that very thing for 500 posts and even the title is about that thing. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > they **are** driving players away from the game Gosh…you have a psychic research certificate from Stanford Institute as well as Stefnia ! I stand back in amazed awe at your ability to remote view the feelings of every single person who ever left EVE and know _exactly_ why they left ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You’re one of the abusers LOL ! Doing PvP in a frikin PvP game whose entire economy has combat as its _apex_ is now ‘abuse’. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/149 "2025-01-12T15:22:57Z")
Unfortunate that the only ‘data’ we have is from 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/150 "2025-01-12T16:04:16Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Unfortunate that the only ‘data’ we have is from 2015 Dude! Don’t you know by now that this forum is about ego and opinions, not data and facts. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/151 "2025-01-12T16:22:04Z")
The important part is the explanation, of why “ganking helps people stick to the game” is a fallacious argument. People do indeed leave the game because they are killed (not necessarily in HS), sometimes without a word (so the only way to know is to look at their losses) , but that’s still anecdotal evidence and maybe people losing ships early is still a good thing. However, regarding wars, people left the game because of wars, sometimes without even undocking after the war started. So the question is, what is the good thing that wars bring to the game ? In theory, it helps null block fight in HS, and makes HS resources (like moons to mine, or market shares like perimeter ) a valuable asset making fights beneficial(AKA it drives conflicts). In practice, it’s mostly used for seal clubbing : it does not drive conflict but one-sided bullying. So my question is : what are the benefits that a change in the war system would provide to the game ? And as always, it’s not the “ideal” case that we need to consider, but the worst one : how will that change be abused. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/152 "2025-01-12T16:29:53Z")
I wish I could answer that, but more “seal clubbing” is all that comes to mind. I think the majority of wars have less to do with extending a third front for any null-sec conflicts and more to do with killboard padding. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/153 "2025-01-12T16:50:42Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > People do indeed leave the game because they are killed Well of course _some_ do. Nobody would dispute that. There’s always going to be some who arrive at a ‘stuff it…this isn’t the game for me’ stance…no matter what the game. The issue with EVE is how large that number is, and also whether those people would have stayed for much longer or found some other reason for leaving anyway. For example…some may leave due to ganking, but you really don’t know whether those people would have left anyway a month later because they found other things too hard or they just found the game boring. Clearly, if all the noobs are leaving due to ganking…they can’t _also_ all be leaving due to wardecs. But it seems to me that every time we get one of these threads people try to shove every noob in existence into ’ XYZ group is leaving because of… ’ You also cannot assume that if a wardeced corp gets disbanded after a station bash…that it means everyone left EVE. I had a look at a case where Wrecking Machine demolished a corp station back in October 2022. Whilst a _small_ percentage seem to have left at the time…many were still in Eve and getting killboard records a year later and _then_ became quiet. Some were still in Eve 2 years later. Whilst about half of the members do seem to have left EVE…its all scattered in between the wardec and now, so its unlikely that _just_ the wardec made people leave. But it is interesting to note that half of them have left…for _some_ reason. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/154 "2025-01-12T17:06:28Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > So the question is, what is the good thing that wars bring to the game ? In theory, it helps null block fight in HS, and makes HS resources (like moons to mine, or market shares like perimeter ) a valuable asset making fights beneficial(AKA it drives conflicts). In practice, it’s mostly used for seal clubbing : it does not drive conflict but one-sided bullying. They provide PvP in a PvP game. I mean…what is the _point_ of all that ore and gas mining, hauling, manufacturing, trading, scheming, etc…_the very apex of which is combat ships_…if people are not going to do combat ?? EVE is a war economy. How do miners or anyone else…who are part of that war economy…get to think that they should be excluded from being ganked by the very ships they ore the minerals to make ? No…you can’t just divide EVE into isolated ‘playstyles’ and demand no interference. Neither is it **reasonable** for a person to think they can just set up shop in a player owned station in some system and be totally excluded from all the carnage. Why should a corp that is not strong enough to survive…expect to survive ? As for ‘one sided bullying’…every player in EVE has the **choice** as to whether to be predator, prey, predator in one char and prey in another, and so on. People should expect their choices to have consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/155 "2025-01-12T17:07:16Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Why would any PvP-er _not_ want to shoot at a big fat juicy station ? I don’t understand why people are complaining about PvP in a PvP game. I’m not. I’m asking for stations to be made into REAL targets- Fully defensible. Not just a structure so weak that it can be taken down by just a few ships doing a war dec. You say you want PvP, but do you really want to work for it? The only reason PvPers like destroying stations is because of how easy and profitable it is. If they had real defenses, they’d stop being, as you so eloquently put it, “big fat juicy stations”. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/156 "2025-01-12T17:07:50Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > The issue with EVE is how large that number is, Gosh, if only somebody had posted actual statements from actual game developers containing actual statements on just how large this number is… Oh wait, I already did. You’re just incapable of understanding or admitting it. > [@Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible?](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/66): > > Before thinking about how much/what kind of a change to Wardecs might be needed, I checked some numbers to see how big of problem it might be. That gives an idea whether just some tweaks and adjustments are needed, or a drastic re-write. This will be long, with supporting facts, so here’s the TL;DR for you: TL;DR: Yes, EVE wardecs are deeply harmful to the game, benefit very few players to the detriment of very many, and contribute relatively little useful or interesting content to the game. Th… And again, you’re the only one trying to make the thread about noobs and ganking. Check the title. It’s about War declarations. Seriously, just learn to read. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/157 "2025-01-12T17:11:34Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > I’m not. I’m asking for stations to be made into REAL targets- Fully defensible. Well so am I, as I have stated in many posts above. I’ve even argued for multiple people to be enabled to operate station defences…quite a radical move. Nobody’s arguing that _nothing_ needs changing. The argument is with those who seem to think there simply shouldn’t be any HS wardecs ( for example ) _at all_. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/158 "2025-01-12T17:12:20Z")
I retract my post then. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/159 "2025-01-12T17:18:36Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Seriously, just learn to read. Seriously…I was IN many of those wars you lecture me on. I was _there_. You weren’t, yet somehow you think you know more about what went on just because you can quote a few arbitrary ‘stats’ from your docked up ivory tower ? Also…anyone can quote mine a few quotes from meetings, without any context of what others said in response or what the overall end decision was. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/160 "2025-01-12T17:59:23Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > I mean, here are CCP’s own figures on the level of noobs being ganked… Nobody talked about ganking. It was an answer to your question about “Why complain about PvP?”. It’s not the PvP people complain about, they know it’s going to happen one way or the other. They can learn how to avoid being ganked. And they learn how to deal with wardecs in this game: Don’t play at all. Don’t undock. Don’t move. Don’t log in. Leave your corp. Or opt-out by not using a structure which would make you a target and only fill the pockets of the guys that intentionally picked you as a young/small group, knowing you simply can’t fight back against their T2/T3/blingimplanted, fleetboosted veteran ships with your lousy T1 crap. They will locator-agent you if you move, they will bring in own allies if you dare to ask someone for help, they will camp you in with instalockers and raze your assets with - for you - absolutely unengagable fleets. The design that allows it to build a whole corp/alliance concept around such a scheme is simply _crap_. Even in a PvP game _this_ kind of nonsense should not work in the starting area where new players get their first impression (which still can take _months_ given the slow-pace design EVE has) of the game. I have absolutely _nothing_ against PvP in highsec, I just don’t like the current design that is _exclusively_ noob bashing. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Never mind that every one of here was once a noob…who clearly survived all the carnage that supposedly ‘makes noobs leave’. I am not worried for the few that make it. I would like to keep more of the large amounts of players in the game that leave it way too early. Because it’s a _great game_, imho one of the best gaming concepts _ever created_. Funny you mention it, because when I joined a game, I did so with a peer-group of like 20 players, coming from another gaming (highly active!) community. We were amazed about EVE, formed our own corp, tried to make plans how to gather resources, build up some kind of industry and take over the world someday. And what happened? We got wardecced by vets that attacked us over and over and over again, with our crappy destroyers and cruisers couldn’t even make a dent into their shields. Being totally new we knew _nothing_ about the game mechanics, and whoever we asked for advice told us the same thing: “You _can’t_ fight a veteran fleet with a newbie gang, thats _exactly_ what they want. Stay docked, log off, play something else!”. Of the 20 guys we came with (and all of them were motivated, skilled gamers, active long term loyal players), like 15 left after a few weeks of doing that crap of simply avoiding some bullies who wanted to farm newbies. They found other games, worth their time a lot more. Maybe 5 actually “survived”, but only because we dissolved the corp and scattered around, some becoming inactive for a long time and others joining big groups to abandon their initial dream. All these players were a _net loss_ for CCP and the game. Because all of them had the potential to become CEOs, industrialists, FCs, paying Subs for years and years. Maybe they wouldn’t have stayed till today, nobody knows. But they were driven out by a handful of bored vets that could have done their PvP just anywhere else before they could even learn to love the game. So yes, if I had to make the decision (as CCP) to stop that and see a few dozen wardeccers cry bitter tears that their noob-bashing concepts don’t work any more but on the other hand having _thousands_ or even tens of thousands of players over the years saved lots of frustration - I’d make that deal any time. Wardecs _don’t benefit the game_ in their current form. They are hurting it. And thats reason enough to question it’s current design. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Is this PvP enough for you ? Oh that “I have other chars!” thingy. Unless you post with them, they don’t exist for the matter of this conversation. And the question itself is rather funny too. It _obviously_ isn’t enough PvP for YOU, because else you wouldn’t do this unchallenging low skill structuregrind in HS. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/161 "2025-01-12T18:56:33Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Oh that “I have other chars!” thingy. Unless you post with them, they don’t exist Yet its odd how you refer to your ‘20 friends’ and their alleged fate endlessly and can invent whatever you like about them…yet don’t apply the same logic. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/162 "2025-01-12T20:38:47Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > and can invent whatever you like about them I don’t need to invent anything. You can check my characters employment history and you will actually find a now closed Corporation “The-Citadel” in which I resided for 41 days shortly after my Account creation. You can even find it on eveWho: [https://evewho.com/corporation/1573615116](https://evewho.com/corporation/1573615116) (Just most of the kills/losses, well, mainly losses, haven’t been taken over from the old killboards and we hadn’t a corp-api registered back then because we simply didn’t know what that was… so the zkill record misses most of the lost ships.) Actually 23 people came over within a few days, we were all enthusiastic noobs and hot to play EVE for several years to come. That corp was basically bullied to death within a few weeks. If not for my stubbornness I would have quitted as well. I don’t need to invent stuff. I can prove my claims. I have _seen_ what wardecs do to new players that want to test out EVE and thats why I am deeply convinced that crap should be abolished, the sooner the better. And all the articles @Kezrai_Charzai linked with the experiences of the Ultima Online Devs hit hard into that same spot. It’s just natural and logical. And everyone with just 2 working brain cells can see that. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/163 "2025-01-12T20:47:13Z")
Don’t feed the troll. He is here for propaganda, not discussion, especially not constructive one. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/164 "2025-01-12T21:05:55Z")
There’s more than a bit of irony that null-sec uses high-sec as a feeder for their alliances and at the same time fodder for seal clubbing. High-sec is long overdue for an overhaul. ---
**Author:** ![Dirk\_Kajhone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dirk_kajhone/32/419135_2.png) [@Dirk\_Kajhone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dirk_Kajhone)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2025, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516/165 "2025-01-12T22:46:46Z")
HI people! Just getting back to review this now, it’s been a busy week. Man, that’s a lot of replies in a short time. haven’t read them all yet just scrolling through… Looks like we have some interesting posts and some really _long_ ones. Also lots of variety, which is great! I’d like to ask if we can keep things less about arguing details and maybe more focused on possible ways to make wardecs interesting and workable. Or prove that they _can’t_ work I guess. I did some research when another thread reminded me to look at these again, on other games, and it seems like the usual responses are remove PvP, or make non-PvP servers, or make ‘safe zones’ where PvP doesn’t happen. None of which seem very EVE-like to me. I’ll catch up on the reading later tonight hopefully. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/are-wardecs-always-going-to-be-broken-is-a-fix-even-possible/473516.md?page=9)