# Arrests of Mikramurka Defense Officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436 "2019-07-15T20:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/241 "2019-07-29T15:34:35Z")
> [@Kril\_Efrit](#): > > Given the company you keep, perhaps it’s not so surprising that you speak and think like an Amarr. _Excuse me_ but _what_? ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/242 "2019-07-29T15:50:55Z")
You haters can accuse Kala of many things but, being an Amarrian dupe or anti-Minmatar is so far out of bounds that I find it extremely offensive. I’ve known Kala for years and while I may disagree with some of her career choices with regards to whom she has chosen to associate with, I have never doubted her devotion to our people and her work on behalf of the Republic. Perhaps the fact that a government official has chosen to come in here with a bunch of ad hominem attacks against a Republic citizen should raise red flags to others as well. Pilot Aloga I think that perhaps your allegiance to your tribal leaders has blinded you to the numerous egregious acts they’ve undertaken (at Sebiestor expense in many cases) in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/243 "2019-07-29T15:59:40Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > Pilot Aloga I think that perhaps your allegiance to your tribal leaders has blinded you to the numerous egregious acts they’ve undertaken (at Sebiestor expense in many cases) in the past. I fully recognize that some actions taken were indeed extreme. The transition of power between the parliamentarian republic and our current tribal system can rightly be called a Coup. I do not deny this. That said, the actions taken by the Sanmatar and the Republic Security forces, while extreme, where needed and for the good of the entire Republic. Yes, some where at the expense of the Sebiestor, but any revolution, peaceful or otherwise leads to actions taken at the expense of the the previously ruling party. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/244 "2019-07-29T16:02:20Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > I’ve known Kala for years and while I may disagree with some of her career choices with regards to whom she has chosen to associate with, I have never doubted her devotion to our people and her work on behalf of the Republic. Interesting, considering: > Mmmh, not quite. I aided Imperial forces in the orbit of Kahah, specifically in the conflict with Ushra’Khan. I had nothing to do with either the Khanid or the pacification of Kahah. > -[Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/daev4-thebeka-iii-freeport-aid-stations/126995/3) I suppose her devotion to our people is only to the freemen and freewomen, then. While she deflects it with “I didn’t actively shell civilians”, she helped forces protecting those acts. By her own words. ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/245 "2019-07-29T16:10:06Z")
It is good to see the Tribal Council showing more respect to Tribal jurisdiction now than they did after certain other incidents. Cooler heads may yet prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seraphea_vellastraan/32/297158_2.png) [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Seraphea_Vellastraan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/246 "2019-07-29T16:23:16Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > You lament that fact that the Elder Fleet was able to save literally Millions of our people, bring back the Starmanir and show the Cluster that we, The People of Matar have strength? How can you call yourself Matari? As someone liberated by that fleet, I remain thankful that there were those willing to make the hard call to attack. I’ve heard a lot about the coup, where many politicians were killed. I’ve said before that if those deaths were the price of liberating my Tribe, then I could live with it. Regardless of the timing, I believe that the coup was a necessary step towards a Tribal Republic with all Seven Tribes united together. The Sanmatar has proven to be a good leader for all our people. I know my Tribe remains thankful for his assistance after our liberation. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/247 "2019-07-29T16:32:26Z")
Think well about what you’ve just said. A _coup_ was necessary to unite the Tribes? Really? If that is the case, then who is to blame? Not the Starkmanir, obviously. Nor the Nefantar, who were kept in the dark by their own leaders. So who was it that _refused_ to work within the system? Who _refused_ to be united with the Sebiestor, Brutor, Krusual, and Vherokior? Who _weakened_ the Republic both with their separation, _and_ by _theft_, as they embezzled funds from it? And who was their loyal agent, organizing an attack on our own government and then conveniently obliterating any chance of getting to the truth? Is that what you call a ‘good leader’? ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/248 "2019-07-29T16:39:08Z")
> [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](#): > > As someone liberated by that fleet, I remain thankful that there were those willing to make the hard call to attack. This right here should be enough. For all our talk about “We come for our people” when some one actually does it, it’s suddenly a bad thing? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Think well about what you’ve just said. A _coup_ was necessary to unite the Tribes? The Coup was necessary because it broke the system that kept the Tribes weak. Corruption festered and rotted our institutions, and the political framework barred any form of true cooperation between the tribes. You keep looking for some one to blame, and it makes sense given that it was the Sebiestor who had the most to lose in any change in the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/249 "2019-07-29T16:44:26Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > For all our talk about “We come for our people” when some one actually does it, it’s suddenly a bad thing? And once again: Don’t even try that card. Shakor and the Thukkers didn’t launch the Elder Fleets when they did because they were _ready_. They launched them because the _Sisters of EVE_ let the cat out of the bag about the Starkmanir. So they were obviously content to let the Starkmanir languish while they stole money from the Republic to spend on _secrecy_. That money could have built the same ships _within the Fleet_, and still had funds left over to do things like, I don’t know, build _more_, or provide more aid to refugees, because it wouldn’t have needed to be spent on _not letting people find out they stole it_. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > The Coup was necessary because it broke the system that kept the Tribes weak. Corruption festered and rotted our institutions, and the political framework barred any form of true cooperation between the tribes. You keep looking for some one to blame, and it makes sense given that it was the Sebiestor who had the most to lose in any change in the status quo. Let me be clear: I _prefer_ the current system. The current _system_ could have been put in place without the coup. _Midular_ dissolved Parliament. _Midular_ called for a new election and invited Shakor back. All of that would have happened _just fine_ without _thousands_ of civil servants being murdered. Who do I blame for the coup? The people who staged it. Just like I blame the _Amarr_ for our people being attacked and enslaved. Or are you going to tell me _that_ was all the fault of the people who were attacked, _too_? ---
**Author:** ![Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seraphea_vellastraan/32/297158_2.png) [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Seraphea_Vellastraan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/250 "2019-07-29T16:52:39Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Think well about what you’ve just said. A _coup_ was necessary to unite the Tribes? Really? If that is the case, then who is to blame? I don’t know that the blame is on any Tribe, so much as those who were in the government at the time, regardless of Tribe. When the corrupt and venal are in power, sometimes the only way to remove them is by force. **I wasn’t there. I don’t know what happened.** However, looking at the Sanmatar’s actions since then, I have little reason to doubt that there was just cause for his actions. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And once again: Don’t even try that card. Shakor and the Thukkers didn’t launch the Elder Fleets when they did because they were _ready_ . They launched them because the _Sisters of EVE_ let the cat out of the bag about the Starkmanir. Possibly. And as someone that lost close family members to that virus, I cannot blame the Sisters in forcing the Elder Fleet’s hand early. I mean that, early. One does not build a war fleet for it to sit about. Maybe they would not have launched that year, or even this decade, but it was there, and it was ready. When the time came to act, they did. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/251 "2019-07-29T16:58:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Don’t even try that card. Shakor and the Thukkers didn’t launch the Elder Fleets when they did because they were _ready_ . I am not sure how you can give fault for attempting to be as prepared as possible. Even with the element of surprise, and the large amount of liberated kin the Elder Fleet was still ultimately forced to retreat. Yes, their hand was forced by the revaluation, but what would you have liked they do at that moment, continue waiting till they were ready, or do what they could at that time? Argueing that the money should have gone to the republic fleet instead is an argument in favor of open war between the Republic and the Empire. The Elder fleet allowed for a clandestine, private and largely unaffiliated entity to do what needed to be done, while at the same time protecting the security and integrity of the republic. it was the _correct_ thing to do. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Let me be clear: I _prefer_ the current system. Then what we are arguing is the means, not the end. With that said, I must disagree with you. The current system _could not_ have been put into place. Yes, Midular dissolved the Parliament, but not to replace it with something new, but instead merely to bring about another parliament. This could have been merely due to a lack of vision on her part, or she knew the realities that such a conversion would not be possible without force, and merely lacked the will to enact it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/252 "2019-07-29T17:08:01Z")
> [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](#): > > I cannot blame the Sisters in forcing the Elder Fleet’s hand early. I mean that, early. One does not build a war fleet for it to sit about. Maybe they would not have launched that year, or even this decade, but it was there, and it was ready. When the time came to act, they did. And had they not been stealing money from the Republic, had that money instead done into the Republic Fleet, then the fleet that went in could have been _larger_. It could have been more experienced, because it wouldn’t have been comprised of people who’d spent years hiding out in the Wildlands _not_ conducting combat exercises, not openly training and getting the real, operational familiarity with their tools that can make a tremendous difference in a fight. They might not have all ended up concentrating in Sarum Prime for Jamyl Sarum to show up and drop her superweapon on. _More_ might have been saved. But we’ll never know, because the Thukker and their agents stole _that_ possibility from us, too. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > it was the _correct_ thing to do. Bull. That decision was not theirs to make. If the Thukkers wanted to undertake such a program on behalf of the Republic, they should have done so _with the knowledge of the Republic_. And not even _they_ try to make that claim, even now. Don’t go trying to play off the Thukkers’ theft as a _noble_ act. It was dishonest, and craven. But I do like the way you completely and abruptly stop even _talking_ about the coup there. What’s the matter, don’t have the _stones_ for logical consistency? ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/253 "2019-07-29T17:10:20Z")
I edited my post to include a point re. the coup. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/254 "2019-07-29T17:12:17Z")
No, you edited your post to include a point about the _transition_. The coup and the dissolution of Parliament were two _completely_ different things. As for what Midular envisioned coming next… she’s the one who invited Shakor back. She knew she’d lose. She knew she wouldn’t be the one ordering the new government. ---
**Author:** ![Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantly_outraged_sebiestor/32/417519_2.png) [@Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantly_Outraged_Sebiestor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/255 "2019-07-29T17:16:42Z")
> [@Kril\_Efrit](#): > > Kril Efrit, > Matar Planetary Security Alright @Kril_Efrit real questions time. Two questions: 1. Is Matar Planetary Security in a position to know what exactly happened that day ? I.e. whether the Blood Raiders used ships and atmospheric shuttles as some rumours suggest, or smuggled surface-to-surface weaponry which seems somewhat more probable. 2. Is Matar Planetary Security in a position to let the wider Minmatar community know ? Or is it still super-classified and we won’t know for a while yet ? Our kinsmen on the outer worlds are anxious, and rumours and speculation will fill an information void. We don’t need classified details. Just a Yes/No would go a long long way to reassure people. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/256 "2019-07-29T17:19:16Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The coup and the dissolution of Parliament were two _completely_ different things. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Who do I blame for the coup? The people who staged it. How about then blaming the people who made it a necessity? the corrupt officials, those bought by the Amarr to serve their interests instead of the Republics. What was removed was cancer, yet you blame the surgeon who removes the tumor. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/257 "2019-07-29T17:20:09Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > the corrupt officials, those bought by the Amarr to serve their interests instead of the Republics So the killers claimed. Also, aren’t you, yourself, bought by an Amarr corporation to serve their interests? Not that AM is particularly Amarrian… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/258 "2019-07-29T17:23:34Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > How about then blaming the people who made it a necessity? the corrupt officials, those bought by the Amarr to serve their interests instead of the Republics. What was removed was cancer, yet you blame the surgeon who removes the tumor. Sure, let’s see the independently-verified evidence not planted with the bodies by the killers. Let’s have full investigations of specific charges. Oh, wait, _we can’t_. Because it was all immediately swept under the rug, and then the whole damned house burned down and buried. Prove a single one of the accusations levied at the dead. Because proving ‘They got murdered by people who were not legally authorized to dispense summary justice without due process’? That’s fekkin’ _simple_. The killers _admitted_ that much. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/259 "2019-07-29T17:27:09Z")
So the ends justify the means Pilot Aloga no matter whether those means involve massive fraud and theft, mass murder and more? Is that really the philosophy we should be following? Maybe it’s the fact that I was raised in the Federation and grew up with the ideals of liberal democracy but, to my way of thinking, a civilized society can’t countenance violence and chaos as useful tools for redress of grievances. There could have been and should have been public trials complete with a presentation of facts and evidence against those accused of complicity with the Amarr rather than summary executions and mass destruction of evidence and attendant cover-ups. There should have been an orderly transition from one government to the next rather than a single authoritarian strongman seizing power then ramming through his agenda. The funds embezzled for the secret Thukker fleet could have been used to strengthen the military and pay for much needed infrastructure to benefit current and newly freed Matari. I could go on but, I think you get the picture. Genocidal coups just can’t be justified away so casually. Aren’t we supposed to be above that sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/260 "2019-07-29T17:43:59Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Also, aren’t you, yourself, bought by an Amarr corporation to serve their interests? Not that AM is particularly Amarrian… My Contract with AM serves both our interests. > [@Arrendis](#): > > They got murdered by people who were not legally authorized to dispense summary justice without due process’ That is what I coup is, at its basic level. > [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > So the ends justify the means I…Yes. The ends justify the means when they serve the greater good of our people. > [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > single authoritarian strongman seizing power May I remind you that once The Sanmatar took power, he immediately gave it up. That hardly sounds like an powerhungry strongman that you make him out to be. His very position of Sanmatar is ceremonial, with no legislative or executive powers other than what the Tribes _give him._ Public Trails would have been Ideal. A peaceful transition of power would have been a perfect world. However we live in reality where such things can be dreamt about, but have to be actively built. I will admit that I do not like that the actions taken were necessary, however I fully support them in that they have now lead to a system where we moving towards a more ideal world. The transfer of the ‘Sundsele 6’ to the Sebiestor Tribe is proof that this new system _works_, as is the handling of the Ndokassi Dispute a few months back. Tribal Authority is now respected, and the Tribal Council represents our people faithfully. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436.md?page=14)