# Arrests of Mikramurka Defense Officials **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436 "2019-07-15T20:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/261 "2019-07-29T18:02:22Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Yes. The ends justify the means when they serve the greater good of our people. You realize that you’ve just said ‘no no, the Day of Darkness and seven hundred years of slavery were _fine_, because the Amarr were convinced those things served the greater good for our people’. That’s the danger of ‘the ends justify the means’. _Who gets to decide what ends are valid?_ Why _them_? > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > May I remind you that once The Sanmatar took power, he immediately gave it up. No, he didn’t. He instituted a system whereby the actual power is wielded in private. It’s a system where the final arbiters of what happens are _internally_ answerable, but not internally _auditable_. In that scenario, the most influential person is the person who is privy to the discussions, but doesn’t _openly_ have a dog in the fight: the one person who _isn’t_ one of the Tribal Chiefs. That puts him in a position to influence the discussion while claiming to be looking at the situation from the perspective of the whole, not as an advocate for any one group or other. The Sanmatar’s power is all soft power, wielded in private. But in the hands of someone who is a skilled politician, that is an _immense_ amount of power. And that’s how it’s _supposed_ to work. It’s how it _should_ work. But don’t for one single moment think that setting up a power structure where he publicly holds no power, and is accountable _only_ to the seven people he works with, talks with, and basically his _job_ is ‘get along with them’, while wielding _significant_ influence over their deliberations… means he ‘gave [power] up’. He just made sure it looks like that. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seraphea_vellastraan/32/297158_2.png) [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Seraphea_Vellastraan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/262 "2019-07-29T18:02:50Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > They might not have all ended up concentrating in Sarum Prime for Jamyl Sarum to show up and drop her superweapon on. _More_ might have been saved. > > But we’ll never know, because the Thukker and their agents stole _that_ possibility from us, too. There are lots of possibilities. It’s possible that if the Amarr had seen how large the Republic Fleet was, they would have built up in response and guarded the border systems with more ships. It’s possible the Amarr would have just surrendered to us. Dealing with what could have been serves us no benefit now. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/263 "2019-07-29T18:03:33Z")
> [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](#): > > Dealing with what could have been serves us no benefit now. No, it doesn’t. We have to deal with what _was_. And what _was_ was theft, deceit, cowardice, and murder. All conveniently covered up and ignored by the new regime. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/264 "2019-07-29T18:10:11Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > My Contract with AM serves both our interests. So, basically, you are saying you are serving Amarr interests because it benefits you? Maybe you should be careful about defending purges? ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/265 "2019-07-29T18:26:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You realize that you’ve just said ‘no no, the Day of Darkness and seven hundred years of slavery were _fine_ , because the Amarr were convinced those things served the greater good for our people’. This is a straw man argument and you know it. although, I will accept your description of of the power structure of the Tribal Council. I just don’t see a problem with it. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > So, basically, you are saying you are serving Amarr interests because it benefits you? > > Maybe you should be careful about defending purges? Should the circumstances that have lead to my current employment ever come to light, then I would hope to be judged by those merits. However I understand perfectly the position I am in and have agreed to pay any price that may come. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/266 "2019-07-29T18:41:41Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > This is a straw man argument and you know it. No, it’s not. It’s a warning against adopting an idiotic perspective like ‘the ends justify the means _if I agree with them_’. Because that’s fedo droppings, and you should be smart enough to know that. Anyone can spin things to make the ‘ends’ something that will garner support. Let’s just look at the coup itself: Do _you_ have any actual evidence that those people were guilty of the things their killers claim they’d done? Do you have any evidence that the killers wouldn’t have killed them _anyway_, in naked pursuit of political power? Do you have any actual _evidence_ that they _didn’t_? If so, why do you simply take them at their word that ‘oh this thing that’s benefitted pretty much **only us** was totally in everyone’s best interests’? Can you show me any firm evidence that Shakor, the man whose followers decried and tried to discredit the Midular administration for being too accommodating to the Amarr, has _actually_ taken a less-accommodating posture, especially when he does what she never did: _goes to Athra as the Empress’ guest_? I don’t recall rogue elements of the Republic Fleet attacking our allies in the Federation under her administration. Do you? I very much prefer the current structure. I do not trust the man who sits in the most powerful, least accountable position in it. This is over and above my normal insistence that those in power must earn trust, and not assume it. I do not trust him because he has done nothing to earn that trust. Taking action when forced to by outsiders is not something that earns trust. Benefiting from mass murder and then making sure it will never be looked into does not earn trust. Calling loudly for war to denounce your political enemies, and then abandoning all mention of it the moment you have power… does _not_ earn trust. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/267 "2019-07-29T19:15:08Z")
Popping in here to make two distinct but related statements. The first is to mention that Clan Chief Tiama Ramijozana is demanding that all details gleaned from the trials of the “Sundsele Six” be released promptly. This includes but is not limited to the nature of the charges against them, the means by which the Blood Raiders were able to attack Matar, and whether Matar’s planetary security is still compromised. Sensitive security details are to be given to _all Sebiestor clan chiefs_ in confidence. Put your money where your mouth is and ask your clan chief to support her. * * * The second point is that we still haven’t heard any details about the Blooder attack that doesn’t have something to do with Sebiestor security officials. To me, this seems to signify one of two things: 1. Shakor is a power-grabbing tyrant and is shielding the real double agents; or 2. The double agents were Sebiestor. I’m still a big fan of the first theory. I’ll freely admit that I don’t want to consider the idea that _Sebiestor_ security officials played any role in Blooders attacking Matar. But the simplest solution tends to be the correct one, and we’re approaching the point where we have to stop pointing fingers at Shakor/the Thukkers/the Krusual/whoever else and start looking at ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/268 "2019-07-29T19:26:47Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > The double agents were Sebiestor. Careful, admitting that the Sebiestor might be culpable isn’t popular thing around here. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/269 "2019-07-29T19:31:48Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > The second point is that we still haven’t heard any details about the Blooder attack that doesn’t have something to do with Sebiestor security officials. To me, this seems to signify one of two things: > > 1. Shakor is a power-grabbing tyrant and is shielding the real double agents; or > 2. The double agents were Sebiestor. Both of these are entirely possible. Open investigation, with proper oversight, will be needed before we can set _either_ possibility to bed. Or even possibility #3: That the security breach came through contractors who might not have been directly affiliated with either Shakor _or_ members of the Sebiestor Tribe. Lots of things _do_ get put up to a bidding war, after all. Government’s still government. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Careful, admitting that the Sebiestor might be culpable isn’t popular thing around here. Eh? The Sebiestor running the system have been, and continue to be, investigated. There’ve been arrests. Of _course_ the people they arrested might have been compromised. What dung are you smoking that you think not trusting Shakor means saying ‘Oh, _our_ Tribe can’t have bad apples!’? Now who’s setting up a damned straw man? Stop being stupid just because you want to knee-jerk some weird inferiority complex all over the place. If this was done by members of the Sebiestor Tribe who were in league with the Blooders, those people should be made an example of. AFTER the evidence has been verified, and shown to the public, and due process has been served. And if they’re _not_, then those who _were_ involved need the exact same treatment. Doesn’t matter who they are. Doesn’t matter what Tribe. But due process _must_ be served, and we _need_ to see the evidence, or there is _no_ reason to trust a process overseen by murderers and thieves. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/270 "2019-07-29T19:32:51Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Put your money where your mouth is and ask your clan chief to support her. > [@Aeron\_Morningstar](#): > > Rhiannon [—] are cooperating with all relevant authorities when it comes to protecting the area from any threats (here’s your required five characters and then some, stupid system) ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/271 "2019-07-29T19:42:49Z")
With respect, Captain Rhiannon, I’m not sure that the two comments are related. Tiama is asking specifically for transparency, which has been in short supply thus far. If this is meant to suggest that Chief Morningstar will lend his support, we’ll be glad to have him. ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/272 "2019-07-29T19:47:55Z")
Stjörnauga supports Chief Tiama Ramijozana’s call for Clan Chiefs to be fully briefed on these matters. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/273 "2019-07-29T21:55:48Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Careful, admitting that the Sebiestor might be culpable isn’t popular thing around here. Careful, your anti-Sebiestor agenda and biases are showing. All that we want is due process and justice. If you and the Shakor regime are so sure of yourselves then simply release all the non-sensitive evidence so far collected, hold fair public trials and let the established criminal justice system run its course. In other words, _be transparent and keep your thumbs off the scales of justice_. Let the investigatory process go where the evidence leads, hold fair and public trials and hold those responsible for this egregious breach of security accountable _no matter who they are._ ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/274 "2019-07-29T22:59:15Z")
With the Hand over of those arrested over to Sebiestor authorities, I do believe that is what is being done. ---
**Author:** ![Literia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/literia/32/491152_2.png) [@Literia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Literia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/275 "2019-07-30T02:39:04Z")
Then why not take care of the people that come to us fleeing their chains then perhaps you would have more support about this. Security of Matar, bullcrap. You let a known mass murder of millions of Minmatar set up a astrahus above the planet in efforts of trying to extinguish life on the planet. So if you want some lessons in security, I would gladly help you out. But until you get off your fat asses and do something about the actual problems in the Republic shut the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/276 "2019-07-30T22:05:26Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > Stjörnauga supports Chief Tiama Ramijozana’s call for Clan Chiefs to be fully briefed on these matters. I would like that briefing as well. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/277 "2019-07-31T02:49:06Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > With the Hand over of those arrested over to Sebiestor authorities, I do believe that is what is being done. Is it? > [@](#): > > Sanmatar Shakor was accorded emergency powers by the Tribal Council for the co-ordination and command of all Minmatar Republic defense, security and public order agencies. Will the Republic’s security and ‘public order’ agencies cooperate? Will the Tribal Council saying the Sebiestor Tribe has jurisdiction somehow prevent the Republic’s agencies from covering things up? I certainly _hope_ that’s what’s being done… but to simply _assume_ it? That’s _trust_. And trust hasn’t been earned by the people in charge. Until it is, all they should get is wariness. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/278 "2019-07-31T16:32:23Z")
Well then you just have to wait and see then. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/279 "2019-07-31T17:47:30Z")
Indeed I do. Just as I have to wait and see if this isn’t some kind of stupid-ass move to accuse innocent people, hand them over to the Sebiestor Tribe _knowing_ they’re innocent, and then use the inevitable finding that to claim the Sebiestor are involved in some massive cover-up of our own. [**Edit:** Now this is where you tell me that it’s unreasonable to think there might be any skullduggery from the guy who spent a decade diverting foreign aid from the Republic to the Thukkers and building up _multiple_ invasion fleets, all in perfect secrecy. The guy who spent years slamming and denigrating Prime Minister Midular for being too friendly toward the Amarr and calling for open war, but hasn’t actually made a move in that direction since taking power, and goes and sits with the Empress at high-profile functions like the Shathol’syn ceremony. Yup. Definitely no reason anyone would think _that_ guy is up to something.] ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436/280 "2019-07-31T18:14:47Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > **Let the investigatory process go where the evidence leads** , hold fair and public trials and hold those responsible for this egregious breach of security accountable _no matter who they are._ Funny, considering the thread you’re posting this in. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arrests-of-mikramurka-defense-officials/175436.md?page=15)