# Arshat AAR - Recovering From Liminality **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [August 19, 2020, 7:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165 "2020-08-19T07:25:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/21 "2020-08-20T13:42:57Z")
The point is that Aldrith Newelle is bitter and spiteful and takes every opportunity to lash out at people he feels have personally wronged _him_ by making different choices about their lives than the ones he feels constrained to make. That’s the point, and it is one Aldrith will continue to hone and stab himself with, again and again, all the while believing he is wounding the targets of his ire. ---
**Author:** ![Tiger\_space\_Thedark](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiger_space_thedark/32/373728_2.png) [@Tiger\_space\_Thedark](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tiger_space_Thedark)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/22 "2020-08-20T14:45:54Z")
No bait I just like point out that most of edencom bragged about arshat being saved And now they are salty that we are doing the same thing with niarja ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/23 "2020-08-20T15:08:02Z")
Arshat was a reversal from liminality, which had never been done. Niarja was the null blocs fighting over a strategic objective. ---
**Author:** ![Argos\_Gelert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argos_gelert/32/224986_2.png) [@Argos\_Gelert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argos_Gelert)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/24 "2020-08-20T16:10:08Z")
Arsia, I applaud your devotion to saving _lives_ over worrying about the politics or economics of the issue. _Lives_ should the priority focus in fighting back against the Triglavians-nothing else. A.G. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/25 "2020-08-20T22:31:09Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Are you saying that because we could not save Niarja, we should not have saved Arshat either? > > Or what’s the point here? No. This was never an issue as Arshat was as a good as saved when Niarja was invaded. At no point was there a decision to be made regarding prioritising one over the other, as the choice was obvious at that point in time. However: > [@Arsia\_Elkin](#): > > I’d choose to save more people over saving a capsuleer trade route any day. This statement here is what I take issue with and hoped to draw attention to for reevaluation. The individual that made it, as far as I know, is involved in contributing input on where to deploy EDENCOM supporting fleets. This is concerning. While on the surface it espouses a shallowly noble sentiment, it is mired in the inaccurate suggestion that the Niarja/Kaaputenen link was used only by capsuleers and exposes a dire lack of foresight by someone who should be trusted to make intelligent and difficult decisions in the context of this war. _If_ there had been a need to call a priority location for EDENCOM focus between the two, the clear choice was Niarja, despite the presence of a colonised temperate planet in Arshat. Yes, the immediate consequence would have been the loss of a higher population system in exchange for a low population system. However, the immediate gratification of ‘saving lives’ in the short-term is a trap this individual willingly walks into. Wars are not only won or lost on civilian population centers liberated or captured, they are won or lost on choke points held or breached, supply links maintained or disrupted, economic centers bolstered or ruined, industrial hubs protected or destroyed, fleets functional or rendered useless and morale emboldened or broken. Of the two systems, one maintained far more than the good feelings of its protectors. Suppose this leader had made the call to sacrifice Niarja for Arshat. The decision had consequence, and as a result, the political and military landscape of the entire cluster has been dealt a massive shock from which it may not recover, and may be a contributing factor in the loss of the war in its entirety, dooming the entire cluster including the supposedly rescued system of Arshat and its population. All of this for the momentary relief provided by keeping one temperate planet safe. Being a military commander means making difficult and at times seemingly callous decisions for the greater good of those you serve. Sacrifice is a concept that the ignorant and meek baulk at, while the wise and responsible accept the reality that it is inevitable. No, the prospect making a call like that is not pleasant, but I should hope a commander in charge of military forces would be able to make the correct one. The statement this indivudual made demonstrates that they are either unwilling to make a call like that, or is ignorant (wilfully or otherwise) of the consequences of making the incorrect one. They would save a smaller amount of lives immediately while placing trillions more at risk on the longer-term. This is unacceptable to me, and I sought to make them reconsider by pointing to the decision made by the actual military and political experts of EDENCOM, the Inner Circle and all four nations of the cluster: Niarja was the priority. If they are not willing to admit their statement was made in error, I do not believe they should be allowed to make decisions of such gravity in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Reginald\_Sakakibara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/reginald_sakakibara/32/270314_2.png) [@Reginald\_Sakakibara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Reginald_Sakakibara)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/26 "2020-08-20T23:38:48Z")
Lord Consort Newelle, As a member of the EDI fleet in Arshat providing command burst support when news first broke of the invasion of Niarja, I believe I can address at least some of your concerns. Almost as soon as Niarja was invaded, while some members of the fleet were granted permission to remain in Arshat for “rearguard” operations, an executive decision was made by fleet command (in conjunction with the Director of EDI, who was in the fleet) to redeploy to Niarja. Although the amount of time between the order for redeployment and entering Niarja to counter the Kybernaut-supported Triglavians was greater than many would have hoped, there seemed little hesitation at the fleet command level that Niarja was a priority defense operation for EDI. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/27 "2020-08-20T23:41:15Z")
Thank you Lord Sakaibara, but I am aware of what happened when the invasion occurred. The issue I take is not with what actually happened, it is with the hypothetical presented and the priorities of the individual above. ---
**Author:** ![DrysonBennington](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drysonbennington/32/501369_2.png) [@DrysonBennington](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DrysonBennington)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/28 "2020-08-21T01:06:30Z")
With mainly Amarrian and Caldari systems falling to the Triglavians and Kybernauts, I have to wonder if the Triglavians are trying to veil their actions behind the hidden support of the Gallante and Minmatar in hopes of escalating war on all fronts that the Trigs would slowly advance into New Eden behind? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/29 "2020-08-21T01:16:04Z")
If the Empire is _so_ shaken by this as to endanger the entire EDENCOM experiment by attempting to establish high-security control of historically Republic systems currently governed by the CEWPA militias in accordance with international treaties, then I would say it is the Empire, not any given EDENCOM commander, that is unfit to be entrusted with such decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/30 "2020-08-21T11:18:50Z")
To be blunt, Aldrith, I don’t want to hear a damn thing about my priorities being suboptimal from a man who, at the onset of this new batch of invasions, was still spending most of his time and effort on a slaving campaign in Floseswin. You throw stone after stone from your glass house, berating anyone who disagrees with you in any way, shape, or form. You think yourself a beacon of political and strategic genius, but that hubris is your greatest weakness, really. Now drop these petty attacks surrounding your hypothetical. Wars aren’t won by pondering hypotheticals. Especially not when they’re simply an attack on somebody against whom you’ve a personal grudge. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/31 "2020-08-21T13:17:59Z")
I would like to note for all that I do not consider myself a military or political genius. I would, however, like to consider myself versed in some of the basics of each subject, which may make me a genius in comparison to some other individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/32 "2020-08-21T15:14:07Z")
It doesn’t. It gives you just enough knowledge to _think_ you have some idea what you’re talking about, while getting things completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/33 "2020-08-21T15:34:38Z")
Perhaps, but not this time. You may try to keep arguing it, but literally all of New Eden seems to be on my side on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/34 "2020-08-21T17:08:03Z")
Literally of New Eden thinks the Amarr Empire is so stupid and reckless that they’ll violate 122 year old treaties rather than just negotiate a rider in the CONCORD Assembly to say ‘civilian baseliner traffic can move through the space of all four empires unmolested unless formal, full-scale war is declared’? After all… > military and diplomatic traffic is also able to use various jump-drive routes together with Empire and State cyno beacons, jump bridges and conduit gates Do you _really_ want to be making the claim that _literally all of New Eden_ thinks the Empire is that stupid, clumsy, and reckless, just because _the Scope_, who _routinely_ get things wrong, decided to toss in some breathless rumor-mongering with no _actual_ source cited beyond generic and anonymous ‘CONCORD conflict monitors’? And without an actual quote? For all we know, the statement was ‘I hope Sarum’s not stupid enough to think this means they should try to make control of the warzone permanent, or anything.’ with another monitor laughing it off as ‘Nah, nobody’s _that_ stupid.’ But sure. You go ahead and publicly declare your conviction that the Empire is _so_ amazingly weak and insecure that _one gate_ that can be worked around is more important than billions of lives. If it were, with over 30 hours of fighting, I’d have expected to see a _massive_ number of capitals on the gates, on the structure grids, at the star, all the places we know the roaming trigfleets like to go… not just in a single line-item on a Scope report. Call me crazy, but then, we’re still holding the choke-points into Delve. ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/35 "2020-08-22T09:27:32Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > the hypothetical presented Damn your hypothetical. The very fact that it’s a hypothetical literally means that isn’t what happened, and quibbling over some imaginary conversation is obtuse at best. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/36 "2020-08-22T09:54:56Z")
And here I thought Minmatar appreciated a good questioning of a leader’s decision making process. ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/37 "2020-08-22T11:02:35Z")
Aye, maybe so. But considerin you’re commenting on a bloody After Action Report, for an unprecedented victory, ya crossed the line of “good questioning” into being a contrarian little turd who’d rather criticize me and mine instead of getting off yer damned butt and doin somethin productive. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/38 "2020-08-22T11:33:51Z")
Something productive like spending many hours in command of the EDI presence in system and contributing significantly to that _unprecedented_ victory? ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/39 "2020-08-22T11:35:48Z")
Eh? He was? Well in that case, can we not make more problems for ourselves? I’m still tryna stomp out the last set of fires, damn. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165/40 "2020-08-22T11:38:29Z")
Unfortunately, due to the loss of Niarja, my damned butt is going to be called away to do something you may consider less than productive. I did command for many hours in both Arshat and Niarja, but I need not be credited. Whatever the case, I merely wished to remind someone that the universe is more complicated than black and white, and that decisions have consequences beyond the immediate effect. Being considerate of those consequences is a skill that must be developed, but unfortunately some believe it to be unnecessary for those too fragile for criticism. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/arshat-aar-recovering-from-liminality/261165.md?page=3)