# Asymmetrical Risk and the Need for Escalation **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 29, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198 "2017-09-29T00:00:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/21 "2017-09-29T18:49:55Z")
> [@Garresh](#): > > In that case I have no problem with said gank. It’s still sort of a problem that “free” alts via skill extractors are a thing, but that is an entirely different issue. It isn’t “free”. There is always opportunity cost. And I am not sure where “the problem” is here. The player who is ganking uses his alts as an SP farm. He sells the SP for ISK to buy PLEX. All of those transactions are voluntary and make each party better off. So, where is the problem? You claim you have no issue with the gank…so where is the problem? > [@Garresh](#): > > When I got back I made a list of types of griefing I used to engage in. I went down the list and found most of them had been nerfed to obscurity. Ganking shouldn’t be the only real method of griefing, and most of my original points stand, even if I was horrifically misinformed on Alphas. My bad there. Well, it would be nice to have different ways for players to interact in a non-cooperative manner in HS, I do agree with you there. But don’t complain about one of the last remaining few…complain there are not enough ways to interact non-cooperatively. ---
**Author:** ![Garresh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garresh/32/411555_2.png) [@Garresh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garresh)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/22 "2017-09-29T19:14:50Z")
I made a poor decision. I figured hauling empty would deter ganks by itself. Once I got to Rens I was going to swap in hardeners since I wouldn’t be autopiloting anymore. Ore isn’t very valuable(edit: by volume) so I was thinking some shield hardeners and a DCU would be enough to deter a gank, even if it’s not optimal. In retrospect it was a poor call. ---
**Author:** ![Garresh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garresh/32/411555_2.png) [@Garresh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garresh)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/23 "2017-09-29T19:17:25Z")
That’s literally what I’m complaining about. The lack of variety in Highsec pvp options means combined with the massive increase in availability of alts means that only one form of griefing exists anymore, so it becomes oversaturated. More options need to exist. Edit: To clarify, its not getting ganked that bothered me exactly. It’s the shifting in the balance of highsec. Ganking is by and far the only thing left, and this has lead to, to some degree, a lack of options on both sides of the equation. Even as ganking is easier in some ways it is much different than it was back in the day. Idgaf about losing a ship to my own poor decisions. That’s Eve. I give a ■■■■ when the balance of risk and reward is so out of whack it creates weird incentives and kills entire playstyles. See, eve is not a fair game, but there is a top level fairness despite all this. Everyone has the same chance. You make of eve whatever you are willing to take and defend. Now it’s all out of whack because many forms of PvE are immune to PvP while others are more vulnerable than ever. Now people can run missions without having to defend anything. It’s very unlike Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/24 "2017-09-29T19:22:49Z")
> [@Garresh](#): > > That’s literally what I’m complaining about. The lack of variety in Highsec pvp options means combined with the massive increase in availability of alts means that only one form of griefing exists anymore, so it becomes oversaturated. More options need to exist. Hmmm…is it the case we are all in violent agreement? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Garresh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garresh/32/411555_2.png) [@Garresh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garresh)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/25 "2017-09-29T19:25:41Z")
Seems that way. Haha ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/26 "2017-09-29T19:39:21Z")
> [@Garresh](#): > > I made a poor decision. I figured hauling empty would deter ganks by itself. Once I got to Rens I was going to swap in hardeners since I wouldn’t be autopiloting anymore. Ore isn’t very valuable(edit: by volume) so I was thinking some shield hardeners and a DCU would be enough to deter a gank, even if it’s not optimal. > > In retrospect it was a poor call. In your defence, you were exceedingly unlucky. After the massive buff to the Orca last fall, almost none are ganked in highsec anymore: [https://gankerlookout.com/#victim%3A%20Orca](https://gankerlookout.com/#victim%3A%20Orca) Only ones stuffed to the gills are picked off for profit these days so being empty and somewhat tanked should have been enough, but you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and someone was trying to make a point to someone else by ganking empty haulers in Uedama at the time when you went through. Thems the risks and you don’t seem to beat up over it. Looking at the odds, you should have made it even on autopilot while empty. I would have given you only a 1 in 500 chance or less at being exploded, but sometime your number comes up. As long as you can comfortably afford the rare bad outcome, taking that small risk so you could do something else more profitable or useful than manually piloting your empty Orca around is completely rational. ---
**Author:** ![March\_rabbit](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/march_rabbit/32/453160_2.png) [@March\_rabbit](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/March_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/27 "2017-09-29T20:07:46Z")
Man, i have a farm of 12 characters and i only spend like couple minutes per week to use it… What “time” are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/28 "2017-09-29T21:47:19Z")
There is always opportunity cost. Whether it is time or what choices you make with the ISK you get from your SP farm. If you use that ISK to buy PLEX, the opportunity cost is the next best option(s) you had for that ISK. ---
**Author:** ![March\_rabbit](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/march_rabbit/32/453160_2.png) [@March\_rabbit](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/March_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/29 "2017-09-29T21:54:33Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > If you use that ISK to buy PLEX, the opportunity cost is the next best option(s) you had for that ISK. Yeah, that’s what i do. I buy PLEX. But i do not see how this speaks against farm itself (does it?). ---
**Author:** ![Garresh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garresh/32/411555_2.png) [@Garresh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garresh)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/30 "2017-09-29T23:02:47Z")
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket. Either way, respect for someone who ganks an empty hauler on principle. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/31 "2017-09-29T23:34:01Z")
> [@March\_rabbit](#): > > Yeah, that’s what i do. I buy PLEX. > > But i do not see how this speaks against farm itself (does it?). No, but it also isn’t “free”. If you buy PLEX then the opportunity cost is the next best use for that ISK. People say, X is bad because it is free, but in reality it isn’t free because there is opportunity cost. There is always opportunity cost when there is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Khergit\_Deserters](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/khergit_deserters/32/319315_2.png) [@Khergit\_Deserters](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Khergit_Deserters)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/32 "2017-09-30T00:12:13Z")
OP, you may be overrating the multi-account/multibox alts ganker fleet. Uedama is the choke point and schwerpunkt for suicide freighter ganking. (Multiplayer) Code. fleets used to harvest a lot of fine loot and calculated cost vs. income profits there. But the core organizers/herders are gone now (due to being banned for unrelated TOS violations or for whatever reason). Anyway, a freighter coming through happy hunting grounds Uedama is like a dream come true. So the guy may have ganked your Orca not out of principle, but out of reaction and reflex. ---
**Author:** ![Garresh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garresh/32/411555_2.png) [@Garresh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garresh)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/33 "2017-09-30T01:25:20Z")
Wait, so even the core organizers of gank fleets are gone now too? That’s even more sad than I realized. I wasn’t whining cause I got ganked. Not directly at least. I was whining cause my preferred form of griefing got nerfed, lol. If they nerf ganking that’s going to break highsec griefing for the most part. Even having key organizers gone is a big hit. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Rosov\_Aulmais](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rosov_aulmais/32/168511_2.png) [@Rosov\_Aulmais](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rosov_Aulmais)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/34 "2017-09-30T03:37:08Z")
The agression mechanism haven’t changed for years, but the Agency events are sometimes stimulating player interaction. There are sometimes good loot in the can that worth fighting (like Valkyrie Cerebral Accelerator) and you don’t need to scan people down. However, sometimes the agency containers are free for all and it becomes a competition of speed and you can’t fight over it. ---
**Author:** ![Rosov\_Aulmais](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rosov_aulmais/32/168511_2.png) [@Rosov\_Aulmais](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rosov_Aulmais)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/35 "2017-09-30T03:41:05Z")
And to be creative, you can actually gank burner ships in burner sites. Just fly a cheap frig and put web/neut on them and funny things will happen. I actually see people on Chinese server ganking Gold Magnate (Which is not as rare as in Tranquility, but still several bil) burner runners by Cruors. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 6:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/36 "2017-09-30T06:32:33Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Opportunity cost…there is always opportunity cost. Always. There is no way to quantify opportunity cost, except in retrospect with 20/20 hindsight. As to the value of time, it is arbitrary. In principle, since it is impossible to buy time, time is invaluable and has no price. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/37 "2017-09-30T06:38:15Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > There is no way to quantify opportunity cost, except in retrospect with 20/20 hindsight. > > As to the value of time, it is arbitrary. > > In principle, since it is impossible to buy time, time is invaluable and has no price. People often realize they have a choice and pick one of the options, so I disagree. As for time, of course it has a price. Your wage is in part for your time. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/38 "2017-09-30T06:58:29Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > As for time, of course it has a price. So how much exactly is one hour of your time worth? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/39 "2017-09-30T07:02:16Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > So how much exactly is one hour of your time worth? A finite number. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Rintel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_rintel/32/453708_2.png) [@Marcus\_Rintel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Rintel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198/40 "2017-09-30T09:22:31Z")
I’m not really here to debate weather Ganking in HiSec is dead or not. Though, I have a speculation on what CCP is doing in HiSec. We’ve seen a shift at CCP, which is supported by the FanFest 2017 Key Note, that they are looking for New Player retention, with revamps of HiSec and the New Player Experience. We have new ways to choose an Empire coming out, and new PvE features for HiSec, like Resource Wars, all in order to train new players in the way Eve is. What I believe I’m seeing is CCP making HiSec new player friendly, in order to keep retention, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the “security governor” gets flipped to a permanent Green or Yellow soon for HiSec, and no PvP options become available. Or for certain systems, where PvP becomes disabled. That’s just my speculation on this. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/asymmetrical-risk-and-the-need-for-escalation/28198.md?page=3)