# Balancing Hi-Sec Freighter Bump Mechanics **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [August 4, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363 "2018-08-04T20:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/241 "2018-08-11T11:05:16Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > What’s the subscription cost each month? Free because of skill injector farming. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > How much ISK would that be worth each and every month, just in subscrption, not even including the subscription time taken to get to the skills needed. Next to none because you can train and use a gank talos/tornado on an Alpha account with just a little bit less DPS than an Omega version. If you want to go T2 Blasters on the Talos, you can do that with 1 month of Omega time, and afterwards you can maintain that account with skill farming. Skill farming even supports a certain number of gank ships per month. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > You are saying it’s fine for one side to be paying, but not ok for the other side. It’s a double standard. The person with the double standards is you. You have to pay for at least 2 accounts to keep your freigther safe as none of the ships (freighter or webber) are Alpha enabled. Gankers can gank with Alpha accounts completely free of charge. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Also, if you are going to go on about costs, a good bump Mach is pretty expensive also: No, they are not. That ship is cheaper than any freighter. Not to mention that bumping also works with NOmens StabberFIs or Typhoons just as effectively as in a Machariel. Freightering does not work in any other ship. The cost argument is always in favor of the bumpers and gankers and always to the disadvantage of the freighter. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/242 "2018-08-11T11:16:33Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > The person with the double standards is you. You have to pay for at least 2 accounts to keep your freigther safe as none of the ships (freighter or webber) are Alpha enabled. Gankers can gank with Alpha accounts completely free of charge. Anyone can get away with alpha accounts, if you only want to login 1 character at a time. That suits some, not all and certainly not me. My choice and I’m entitled to it, just as others are entitled to their choices. The rest of your useless dribble was not surprising, and just complete BS as usual. Regardless of whether someone uses an SP farm or not, SP aren’t used for subscription. PLEX is when not directly by money. Somone paid for that PLEX and it still cost money. And, nothing stops me using that method too if I want, so then by your own measure, it costs nothing extra for a freighter pilot (even though that is wrong to begin with). It’s a completely idiotic point. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/243 "2018-08-11T11:23:38Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > PLEX is when not directly by money. Somone paid for that PLEX and it still cost money. That’s completely besides the point about how to maintain a cost free Omega account for ganking. The ganker does not pay for the PLEX, they just use them. So again just complete bovine waste from a clueless person spamming a threat with meaning less dribble. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > And, nothing stops me using that method too if I want, so then by your own measure, it costs nothing extra for a freighter pilot. That is correct. However, the freigher _has to_, gankers _do not have to_. Ganking done by actual people and not bot armies can produce full gank fleets with alpha chars and cooperate with players. Not like CODE who do nothing but playing with their own alts. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/244 "2018-08-11T11:26:19Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > That’s completely besides the point about how to maintain a cost free Omega account for ganking. The ganker does not pay for the PLEX, they just use them. So again just complete bovine waste from a clueless person spamming a threat with meaning less dribble. Awesome, so then Freighter pilots cost nothing either, because they can be PLEXed just the same. Yay, free play for everyone…just totally free (it’s one of the dumbest arguments I’ve seen you make and that’s a pretty tough standard to beat) Free freighter pilots and webbing alts for everyone. No extra cost at all then, for anyone, so no bother with a freighter pilot adding a webbing alt. It’s free right? ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/5/4502d831562c49b5ddcf10b52f499178a7e9c800.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/245 "2018-08-11T11:27:08Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Free freighter pilots and webbing alts for everyone. No extra cost at all then, for anyone, so no bother with a fgreighter pilot adding a webbing alt. It’s free right? You are missing the point in your childish rant. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/246 "2018-08-11T11:29:13Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > You are missing the point in your childish rant. 🙂 It’s exactly the point you made. It’s rubbish but don’t be afraid to own it. It’s right there: > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Free because of skill injector farming. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/247 "2018-08-11T11:30:10Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > It’s exactly the point you made. > > It’s rubbish but don’t be afraid to own it. It’s right there: Let us do this step by step: Does that skill farmer pay RL money for the PLEX to buy the extractors? A simple yes or no suffices as answer. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/248 "2018-08-11T11:34:06Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Does that skill farmer pay RL money for the PLEX to buy the extractors? Not if they are a freighter pilot, nor if they are a ganker. Is there no income for CCP then for a player using PLEX? ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/249 "2018-08-11T11:37:08Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Not if they are a freighter pilot, nor if they are a ganker. I take this as a “No” as the answer to my question if the ganker uses RL money to pay for the PLEX. Next step: Someone else pays for the PLEX this character uses. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/250 "2018-08-11T11:40:01Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Someone else pays for the PLEX this character uses. Correct? Sure. So the time still costs money. So if I setup an SP farm for my freighter pilot and myself as a webber, I make use of PLEX paid by someone else, and have to have earned the ISK in game through time and effort, which still isn’t free, but whatever. You are continuing to make a stupid point that it is free for gankers, but not willing to even acknowledge that the point applies equally to anyone and CCP still get money for the time. The omega time isn’t free, no matter how you cut it. The only variable is who actually pays the cash. But if you want to go with the “it’s free” argument, then that same argument applies to us all. It’s free for us all to play our different playstyles. Ganker, hauler, whatever. That obviously destroys the argument that it’s unfair that a freighter needs to add an alt to have access to webs. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/251 "2018-08-11T11:46:34Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Sure. So the time still costs money. > > So if I setup an SP farm for my freighter pilot and myself as a webber, I make use of PLEX paid by someone else, and have to have earned the ISK in game through time and effort, which still isn’t free, but whatever. I take this as a “Yes” for the question that someone else pays for the PLEX being used by the ganker (or freighter/webber/other purpose char). Next step: If someone else pays for the PLEX that you use (which you agreed to) and you do not invest any RL money for the PLEX (which you agreed to), what is the cost of the account maintenance for the characters using the PLEX? And what is the cost for the ganker (or any other purpose) character who do not need to invest any ISK in the skill farm because the skill farm supports itself? ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/252 "2018-08-11T11:49:22Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Next step: If someone else pays for the PLEX that you use (which you agreed to) and you do not invest any RL money for the PLEX (which you agreed to), what is the cost of the account maintenance for the characters using the PLEX? To me the cost is the time and effort to earn the ISK. For whoever I am shifting the price of the Omega time to, it’s whatever money they paid for the PLEX. So in that regard, if we assume it was a multiple, single purchases of 500 PLEX for $20 by different people, then those dozen gank accounts referred to by Mike above run at $240 USD roughly per month invested in PLEX by whoever to maintain those gankers. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/253 "2018-08-11T11:58:54Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > To me the cost is the time and effort to earn the ISK. For whoever I am shifting the price of the Omega time to, it’s whatever money they paid for the PLEX. What it is to you doesn’t matter. What is the cost to the ganker character in both cases? ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/254 "2018-08-11T12:02:53Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > What is the cost to the ganker character in both cases? Whatever they pay for subscription. If they pay monthly in cash, then those dozen accounts are 12 \* $15 = $180. If they use PLEX, then the cost is as above $240, no matter who pays, it’ still $240 to CCP for that time. Your argument is stupid. You should just drop it, because the only other outcome is that it is free for freighter pilots if it is free for gankers - the same standard (not a double standard) applies. However, even PLEXed accounts aren’t free. The Omega time still costs money and again arguing cost for a webber v cost of gank fleet is stupid. It costs more for the gank fleet compared to a freighter with a webbing alt. Each to their own, but an argument based on cost isn’t to the disadvantage of the freighter pilot where we are talking about paid time. If you want to argue that all gankers are only alpha, then argue away. You’ll be proven wrong in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/255 "2018-08-11T12:14:13Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Whatever they pay for subscription. > > If they pay monthly in cash, then those dozen accounts are 12 \* $15 = $180. If they use PLEX, then the cost is as above $240, no matter who pays, it’ still $240 to CCP for that time. They do not subscribe. And they do not pay for the PLEX. So, by your own admission someone else pays for their subscription by making PLEX available to them. If someone else pays for their subscription, they themselves have 0 cost to maintain their accounts. Correct? We now have established that the cost to maintain a ganker or other purpose character is 0 as long as other people provide the means to make this possible. If someone else paid for the PLEX, you do not have to pay any RL money to maintain your account and you do not have to pay any ISK beyond what you need to buy extractors, but which you in turn generate with the skill farming. So the cost to maintain such a character is 0. 0 equals free for this particular character as someone else effectively donates game time to you. Clear so far? > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > If you want to argue that all gankers are only alpha, then argue away. You’ll be proven wrong in no time. No, I know for a matter of fact that most of them are Omega. The killboard says as much. Only a fool would argue otherwise. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/256 "2018-08-11T12:15:20Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > they themselves have 0 cost to maintain their accounts. Correct? No. It costs them in time and effort instead. There is still a cost. > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Only a fool would argue otherwise. Oh crap. Then I guess you’ll be arguing it in no time. Wish I hadn’t mentioned it now. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/257 "2018-08-11T12:18:19Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > No. It costs them in time and effort instead. There is still a cost. And what is the effort? You train the same skill over and over again and do your preferred activity day in/day out while you passively generate your account maintenance money. That’s near 0 effort and the time is spent anyway as you play for 30 days regardless of how you maintain your account. In essence: 0 ISK and 0 RL currency account maintenance cost for this particular character. It is not free for someone else, that is correct, but for the particular character in question the account maintenance cost is 0 and thus as free as it gets. Thank you for agreeing to that. 🙂 And yes, I use this method, too, to maintain my webbers and I can tell you I have not paid CCP directly any money for them in 1.5 years. The cost to maintain these accounts is 0. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/258 "2018-08-11T12:20:47Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > And what is the effort? You train the same skill over and over again and do your preferred activity day in/day out while you passively generate your account maintenance money. That’s near 0 effort and the time is spent anyway as you play for 30 days regardless of how you maintain your account. So this applies to everyone equally. The argument applies to my accounts then. There is no advantage to gankers in your argument. The ability to SP farm isn’t based on what in game activity someone chooses. So if you want to try to isolate this as only somnething gankers have access to, you can’t. If it’s free for gankers, it’s free for their targets and the idea that somehow adding a webbing alt is unfair because of cost is destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/259 "2018-08-11T12:23:15Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > There is no advantage to gankers in your argument. The ability to SP farm isn’t based on what in game activity someone chooses. There is: A freighter has to do this or subscribe in order to do their business. A ganker does not have to in order to gank. It does not matter if they are omega or alpha, they can do their activity for free in both cases. I think that’s a pretty big difference and a pretty big advantage for gankers. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/260 "2018-08-11T12:24:27Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > There is: A freighter has to do this or subscribe in order to do their business. A ganker does not have to in order to gank. It does not matter if they are omega or alpha, they can do their activity for free in both cases. So now you are arguing that gankers are alpha’s. I knew it…There’s that foolish argument, that you already said wasn’t the case just above: > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > No, I know for a matter of fact that most of them are Omega. It’s a matter of fact you said…of course, until that isn’t convenient and suddenly they are alpha instead. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363.md?page=14)