# Balancing Hi-Sec Freighter Bump Mechanics **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [August 4, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363 "2018-08-04T20:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/382 "2018-08-15T00:58:47Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > > We should not be rewarding lazy gankers either. > > Oh God…this tired trope… Sorry this is just a lie. So you are saying that we _should_ reward lazy gankers? ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/383 "2018-08-15T01:01:45Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > So you are saying that we _should_ reward players who work together as a team? Fixed it for you. Part of your confusion is you think you are somehow better than these other players. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/384 "2018-08-15T01:06:29Z")
Well, given that the proposed solution has teamwork baked right in… and in a way that specifically favors the Other Team with a spool up… Maybe you should check your rhetoric and dogma If anything, it is you who are saying that the ganker is more important than the hauler, by saying he’s allowed to be lazy while the hauler has a higher standard he must meet in the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/385 "2018-08-15T02:50:11Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > So you are saying that we _should_ reward lazy gankers? Guys who find targets, bump the target, have a fleet, some one doing the logistics a loot scooper, and so forth. Everyone is on voice comms. Yes lazy? As Salt said they are working as a team. They aren’t lazy. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > If anything, it is you who are saying that the ganker is more important than the hauler… Not more important but not idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/386 "2018-08-15T03:07:23Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Hauler has to be perfect at every gate, every time, with his fleet not just on the way but right there with him. What “fleet” are we talking about? Do you mean the single Tackler/Scout they should bring with them to make sure there aren’t any camps ahead of them, and to Web the hell out of them to make sure they warp quickly? If a single Alpha rookie frigate is “a fleet” to you, then [you are a sad, strange little man. And you have my pity](https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b8/67/99/b86799c1cc53bcf79b45c33e7a67e625.jpg). =) ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 3:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/387 "2018-08-15T03:23:04Z")
I would not so constrain my choices, but that’s about what the gankers have on the field in this scenario as well, so why the double standard? ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/388 "2018-08-15T04:30:10Z")
My point is, you don’t need “a fleet” to keep a Freighter safe as it flies from Jita to Dodixie. All you need, is the same thing Low/Null Sec pilots use already. A single Scout who flies ahead to make sure the way is clear. And since they’re guaranteed to arrive on the next gate well in advance of the Freighter (5 AU/s vs 1 AU/s), they can get in position to Web the Freighter as soon as it comes through the Gate. The gankers need a fleet b/c they need to deal a ton of damage before they get caught. But you only need to reduce your “75% of max speed to enter warp” down to 1 m/s or so, so the Freighter can get away. Here’s a quick bit of doodling in Pyfa… > [@](#): > > [Charon, Hauler] > > Expanded Cargohold II > Expanded Cargohold II > Expanded Cargohold II > [@](#): > > [Heron, Freighter Escort] > > [Empty Low slot] > > 1MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner > X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier > X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier > X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier > X5 Enduring Stasis Webifier > > [Empty High slot] > > [Empty Rig slot] Working in tandem, this little guy can get the big guy from 60 m/s max speed, down to 12 m/s max. Which means the Freighter only needs to be going 9 m/s in the right direction to warp away, rather than the 45 m/s it would take normally. Even if the big guy is getting juggled, the little one could nudge them in the ass in the right direction and send them on their way. Then you still have time to warp, arriving ahead of them, for the next leg of the trip. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/389 "2018-08-15T04:45:07Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > We should not be rewarding lazy gankers either. If they can’t be bothered to be ready then they don’t deserve the massive profits. Hang on, just above: > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > All of your stuff about how much risk the freighter accepted is just that, because we aren’t discussing a gank. Ganking is fine. So we are discussing bumping, since that’s the assertion that the engagement is 1v1 when it is the bumper alone and doesn’t become more than that until later on. So, the idea that any lazy bumper can keep a freighter bumped for an extended period of time isn’t the case. Lazy bumping leads to the Freighter getting on his way and that’s perfectly fine. However a lazy freighter doesn’t deserve any more assistance, just as a lazy bumper doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/390 "2018-08-15T05:36:50Z")
Why does the lazy ganker get a 2nd try? 3rd? 4th? 40th? Every time interval equal to the align time of the target that his fleet isn’t there to gank is a failure to be ready. It’s just poor planning and lazy execution, and it should not be rewarded. Either the ganker is ready to gank, or he isn’t. Try to keep the comparisons equal. It was already established that even a well prepared, properly flown freighter with backup can get caught, if less often. We are not penalizing lazy Hauling when that guy gets bumped. We are rewarding lazy ganking. Even so, no one is saying the Hauler should be able to recover from bad luck in 40 seconds. 5 minutes is far more than reasonably generous, and yet you are behaving like someone stole your favorite candy. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/391 "2018-08-15T05:53:04Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Why does the lazy ganker get a 2nd try? 3rd? 4th? 40th? > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > because we aren’t discussing a gank. Ganking is fine. We should maintain some consistency. No? I’d rather discuss it in the context of a gank, but then you need to accept that it was never a 1v1 situation, because the gankers were already part of the process, even when only the bumping is occuring. In that case, it’s already 12, 13, 20, whatever versus 1 and why should a freighter that didn’t take precautions, gain yet another tool? If it isn’t about the gank, then stick to the bumping and if the bumper is lazy, the freighter escapes. If the bumper isn’t lazy, then it’s not an issue, because there is no problem of careful freighter pilots being caught all the time. It’s the lazy ones that do, and they don’t deserve any further assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 5:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/392 "2018-08-15T05:56:52Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > If it isn’t about the gank, then stick to the bumping and if the bumper is lazy, the freighter escapes. If the bumper isn’t lazy, then it’s not an issue, because there is no problem of careful freighter pilots being caught all the time. It’s the lazy ones that do, and they don’t deserve any further assistance. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > It was already established that even a well prepared, properly flown freighter with backup can get caught, if less often. We are not penalizing lazy Hauling when that guy gets bumped. We are rewarding lazy ganking. > > Even so, no one is saying the Hauler should be able to recover from bad luck in 40 seconds. 5 minutes is far more than reasonably generous, and yet you are behaving like someone stole your favorite candy. You can call it Fleet vs. Fleet if you like, But you don’t get to claim that people 2 jumps back, or 3 jumps away, or eating dinner, or whatever count. If they are present and active, they count. So the Ganker has a fleet if they are on station, and the Hauler has a fleet if they are on station. The point under discussion is about what happens next. Ganker got lucky and starts bumping despite preperations. Good Job. But so Sad, his Fleet was not ready. Why does that unprepared fleet deserve extra chances to get ready. Why should the Hauler at that point be forced to suicide in self defense or rely on a lucky bump? Why should not the hauler have the same opportunity to call backup in the same way the ganker is doing? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/393 "2018-08-15T06:10:14Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > I would not so constrain my choices, but that’s about what the gankers have on the field in this scenario as well, so why the double standard? Says the guy who despises PvP and who never takes part in it. Trust me, when you find out the enemy has a hostile fleet nearby you don’t just pretend they don’t exist. > [@Make Concord Nerf Damage % In Highsec](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-concord-nerf-damage-in-highsec/92917/72): > > You should understand… I am a huge carebear. All I do is 'bear it up, I despise the PvP elements of the game, and am only here for the pretty graphics these days since they hired a bunch of extremists PvP guys from null sec alliances as their Dev team, Oh, 9-10 years ago now? > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > So we are discussing bumping, since that’s the assertion that the engagement is 1v1 when it is the bumper alone and doesn’t become more than that until later on. > > So, the idea that any lazy bumper can keep a freighter bumped for an extended period of time isn’t the case. Lazy bumping leads to the Freighter getting on his way and that’s perfectly fine. > > However a lazy freighter doesn’t deserve any more assistance, just as a lazy bumper doesn’t. Heh…nice. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Why does the lazy ganker get a 2nd try? 3rd? 4th? 40th? Ganker or bumper? You keep whining about deflection and then you write that crap. The bumper screws up he could very well lose the freighter. Next. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Every time interval equal to the align time of the target that his fleet isn’t there to gank is a failure to be ready. It’s just poor planning and lazy execution, and it should not be rewarded. Umm no. If they are in a central location with a number of bumpers then they are ready. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Either the ganker is ready to gank, or he isn’t. Try to keep the comparisons equal. But the bumper is not being lazy. He is quite active and busy. You are all over the place you want to ■■■■■ about the gankers when it suits you and tell everyone to shut up about gankers when it doesn’t. Bottom line is this is the same intellectually dishonest horse ■■■■ we get in the AFK cloaking thread. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Even so, no one is saying the Hauler should be able to recover from bad luck in 40 seconds. 5 minutes is far more than reasonably generous, and yet you are behaving like someone stole your favorite candy. Yes, because you know very well that the gank fleet might be waiting out 10 minutes on a criminal timer from their last gank. You’re arguments are completely self serving tripe. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > The point under discussion is about what happens next. Ganker got lucky and starts bumping despite preperations. Good Job. But so Sad, his Fleet was not ready. No. The gankers did not get lucky. They saw this moron undock. They saw his cargo value. They’ve been keeping an eye on him. The bumper gets ready in the appropriate system. When the moron appears he starts bumping him. There are noob ships standing by to shoot the moron if he attempts to logoff. And this all happened because the idiot freighter pilot took on too much risk. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/394 "2018-08-15T06:10:20Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > The point under discussion is about what happens next. Ganker got lucky and starts bumping despite preperations. Good Job. But so Sad, his Fleet was not ready. So what? Whether they were waiting out criminal timers and couldn’t undock, changing ships for the gank, flying from multiple systems away, etc. good on them. ■■■■ happens, even to the prepared, but being prepared is better than not, and just because ■■■■ happens and the other guy wins, doesn’t give a right to even more help than is already available in the game. As a freighter pilot, I don’t want the game to be easier for me. Don’t destroy what I enjoy about the game over some bleeding heart rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/395 "2018-08-15T06:12:34Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Why does that unprepared fleet deserve extra chances to get ready. Ahhh the sweet, sweet intellectual dishonest of Mike Voidstar. Are they unprepared or are they prepared, but just a few jumps out because they have 2 or 3 bumpers our? You keep saying this Mike, but it is actually…a lie. Edit: For example, with that 30 billion moron back up stream…yeah pings didn’t go out, if they were even needed, when the bumper started bumping. But when they saw that guy leave Jita 4-4. Once they saw him, pings were going out…probably in short intervals…if they didn’t already have a fleet up ready to burn that dingbat’s ass into cinders. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/396 "2018-08-15T06:15:53Z")
Then you have a double standard. If the Ganker can have his DPS 3 jumps out, why can’t the Hauler have escort ships also waiting in a central location watching over an entire shipping enterprise? Apples and Apples. If the Hauler needs to have escort ships present on the gate at the time of bump, then the Gankers need to also be present on the gate at the time of bump. If it’s Ok for the Gankers to have their DPS elsewhere, then it’s Ok for the Hauler to have his escort elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/397 "2018-08-15T06:16:00Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > As a freighter pilot, I don’t want the game to be easier for me. Don’t destroy what I enjoy about the game over some bleeding heart rubbish. Also, do not take away Scipio’s competitive advantage. If he is a good freighter pilot that is something that allows him to earn some value. Seriously, get rid of ganking, the extreme outcome, and carrying freight for a profit simply disappears. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/398 "2018-08-15T06:17:57Z")
For the subject under discussion he loses no competitive advantage. If he flies prepared as you claim, he will never be targeted at all, and will not be affected. If his competition refuse to prepare as you claim, they will be caught and also be unaffected. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/399 "2018-08-15T06:18:05Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > If the Ganker can have his DPS 3 jumps out, why can’t the Hauler have escort ships also waiting in a central location watching over an entire shipping enterprise? They can. If they are watching over multiple freighters, then sure. You assumed the answer would be no. Of course, what do the gankers have at risk? Not much really. What does the freighter have at risk? Several billion ISK. Given the risk factors the prudent thing might be to have the escort fleet nearby. You keep ignoring risk in this discussion. The guy with more risk…he should be taking more precautions. The greater the risk the greater the precautions. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/400 "2018-08-15T06:18:54Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > For the subject under discussion he loses no competitive advantage. Sure he does. Now the idiot is less likely to be blown up. Now Scipio has more competition from the idiots. Christ, did you take no economics anywhere in your education? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 6:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/401 "2018-08-15T06:19:08Z")
That’s because we aren’t discussing something subjective, like value or risk. We are discussing mechanics that do not change based on the value of what’s in your cargo hold. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363.md?page=21)