# Balancing Hi-Sec Freighter Bump Mechanics **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [August 4, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363 "2018-08-04T20:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/502 "2018-08-17T19:26:10Z")
Just curious why do you argue against symmetry in the AFK cloaking thread, but argue for symmetry? Thay aren’t stupid. The are prudent and sensible and are using existing mechanics to their advantage. The dumb freighter pilot is using existing mechanics to the advantage of gankers. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/503 "2018-08-17T19:52:16Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Just curious why do you argue against symmetry in the AFK cloaking thread, but argue for symmetry? Because my primary argument is not about balance, it’s about the poor game design of extended stalemates. The situation as it exists now is bad design on that evaluation point, so there has to be a major redeeming factor elsewhere to justify it. And “people who are bad at ganking and can’t organize an immediate kill still need to get their killmails” is not a sufficient reason to keep bad design in place. Nor is “the freighter pilot is also bad” an excuse for the gankers being bad. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/504 "2018-08-17T20:11:25Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > The design principals of high sec. > > All aggression between players is limited. > > You have a mechanic that wasn’t intended for aggression being used aggressively. Emergent Gameplay is something they support, so outright bans aren’t called for, but an adjustment to restore the high sec ruleset to a balanced state is called for. if the bumper attack the freighter then he do his Aggression and get also punished by concord … bumping a ship is no Aggression xD if you got bumped ist only your fault cause you are to lazy ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/505 "2018-08-17T20:48:01Z")
Yes, I’m aware of the loophole being used. Using Bumping as tackle isn’t flagged as aggression because the game engine cannot distinguish between an accident and real aggression. That’s fine as far as it goes, emergent behaviors are something that is supported. However, in this case it goes too far, and creates an imbalance. Trust me, if both Merin and I agree on something, it merits looking into. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/506 "2018-08-17T21:39:49Z")
Why is AFK Cloaking not an extended stalemate? ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/507 "2018-08-17T22:16:01Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > Yes, I’m aware of the loophole being used. > > Using Bumping as tackle isn’t flagged as aggression because the game engine cannot distinguish between an accident and real aggression. > > That’s fine as far as it goes, emergent behaviors are something that is supported. > > However, in this case it goes too far, and creates an imbalance. > > Trust me, if both Merin and I agree on something, it merits looking into. there cant be an Imbalance because there is no Impact on the playerbase if someone think to bump O N E ( 1 ) freighter ist just Impact 1 guy and this is not a very smart guy so …. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/508 "2018-08-17T23:11:47Z")
If it only ever happened once, you might have a point. However, it happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/509 "2018-08-17T23:51:46Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Why is AFK Cloaking not an extended stalemate? It is, and AFK cloaking is not an ideal state. That’s why I’m in favor of nerfing local so that AFK cloaking is no longer necessary or relevant. But note a key difference between the two: AFK cloaking serves a useful purpose, even if it isn’t the ideal solution, by being the only counter to an overpowered intel tool. Extended bumping has no similar purpose, idiot freighter pilots can already be killed without it if the gankers are competent and prepared. The only people who need extended bumping are trolls and low-skill gankers who can’t organize an immediate kill. Allowing bad design so that lower-skill players can pretend to be good is a terrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Castiel351](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/castiel351/32/89011_2.png) [@Castiel351](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Castiel351)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/510 "2018-08-18T06:18:00Z")
CCP Public Service Announcement: Please do not cross streams, if you the currents of AFK cloaking and freighter bumping forum posts touch, all the hamsters that run the forums will be violently electrocuted and three cute bunnies will die just because. This concludes the announcement. You are welcome to go back to trolling each other. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 8:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/511 "2018-08-18T08:24:28Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > If it only ever happened once, you might have a point. > > However, it happens all the time. Show me that this buming for Hours are all over the EvE universe …. Show it me ! otherwise i know ist Happening only a few times. i got bumped by myself only 2 times and i run a JF 2-3 days per week Hours for Hours to jita with a shitload of Cargo xD why i dont get every trip bumped like you said ist happen ? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/512 "2018-08-18T13:48:50Z")
I didn’t say it happens every trip. I said it happens all the time, as in it’s a common occurrence. When it does happen, it can, and has, happened for extended periods of time where the target has few if any counterplay options. But regardless of how often it happens, if it happened even once it highlights a balance problem, because it’s using something not flagged for aggression in an aggressive manner, and aggression is supposed to be limited in high sec with well known consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/513 "2018-08-18T16:50:31Z")
You said by yourself that this happened not rly often but everywhere in eve? Why should ccp change somethin which will destroy the game for almost everyone only to save the 3 freighter per day they got bumped for hours? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/514 "2018-08-18T17:15:26Z")
You are going to have to be a little more coherent. How, if it only allows for a mechanical limit to an event you claim is so rare as to not matter to anyone, does it destroy the game for almost everyone? I’m not just looking to limit bumping for the 3 freighters that get bumped for hours. I’m looking to restore balance for every freighter that gets bumped for more than 5 minutes. The point was made that it’s not balanced if one side only needs a bumper for an extended time and the other side has to have it’s fleet present at all times, and still be unlucky. So the bumping needs to have a limit. If the Gank Fleet can take time to form up and arrive to actually gank, then the Hauler Fleet should be able to take that same time with a realistic way of escaping without need to suicide to get around concord. We are looking at Haulers who want to bring in backup as needed in exactly the same way the gankers are doing, and Haulers that got unlucky and still got caught despite preperations. In the first case it’s simply a race that favors the gankers with a spool up, in the latter its a hard cap to the bumping that only comes into play when the webs fail to get the job done quicker. So tell me how that destroys the game for almost everyone? The only gankers that are affected are the ones that could not be bothered to show up in a timely fashion or the ones that were already successful and are waiting out the consequences of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/515 "2018-08-18T20:56:49Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > How, if it only allows for a mechanical limit to an event you claim is so rare as to not matter to anyone, does it destroy the game for almost everyone? cause changing of bump mechanic with a damage Multiplier as example kills all larger fleets and capital fleet engangements. > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > I’m not just looking to limit bumping for the 3 freighters that get bumped for hours. I’m looking to restore balance for every freighter that gets bumped for more than 5 minutes. you only Need a JF or a web alt … or just dont overload your freighter with ■■■■ > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > The point was made that it’s not balanced if one side only needs a bumper for an extended time and the other side has to have it’s fleet present at all times, and still be unlucky. whats wrong with the single bumper ? he cant kill you xD he just can kill your time → log off and come back next day or so > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > So the bumping needs to have a limit. If the Gank Fleet can take time to form up and arrive to actually gank, then the Hauler Fleet should be able to take that same time with a realistic way of escaping without need to suicide to get around concord. then the bumper its not the Problem xD you worried About a gank fleet 😛 and they also could gank you in 1 min at the gate ^^ they just want your Tears and / or isk thats the reason why you got bumped 30 min or somethin lets do a mind Experiment. CCP Change the bump Mechanik and gave everybody a 5 min timer until you can warp → HS ganker will create more alts to be already able to gank any freighter in this 5 min time window and you still crying About bumping and ganking > [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > We are looking at Haulers who want to bring in backup as needed in exactly the same way the gankers are doing, and Haulers that got unlucky and still got caught despite preperations. In the first case it’s simply a race that favors the gankers with a spool up, in the latter its a hard cap to the bumping that only comes into play when the webs fail to get the job done quicker. if you get ganked you cant bring backup ^^ if you get bumped and you got backup its still useless 😛 you Need your “backup” before you get bumped as a webbing alt or a friend with a webbing char tl:dr its Always your fault if you get bumped and get ganked not CCP´s ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/516 "2018-08-18T22:07:27Z")
the issue isnt the ganking…it is the lack of being able to play the game… And in one example someone said he saw a bump that lasted 3-4 hours until war dec went live… That alone is unnacceptable… and honestly…if it were me…and i was bumped for that long…not only would be taking pics or running Fraps or something…but i would be making petitions after 10 minutes elapsed… no, if you bumping for longer than 10 minutes you are griefing pure and simple, if you dont think that…then you need to shut up and leave the game cause your toxic for community. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/517 "2018-08-18T23:09:13Z")
> [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > That alone is unnacceptable… It is acceptable Being bumped for any reason is acceptable Wanting safety because you made poor decisions is not ---
**Author:** ![Sepheir\_Sepheron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sepheir_sepheron/32/279597_2.png) [@Sepheir\_Sepheron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sepheir_Sepheron)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/518 "2018-08-19T00:59:34Z")
-jumps freighter through gate -random ship begins bumping you -x time later bumping stops -“hmm I wish there was some pvp I can do stop him or something to prevent this nonsense griefing when there isn’t even a gank coming…” -post on forums -git gud play with friends noob stop flying stupid -🤔 -??? -got gud no longer get bumped ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Voidstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/32/280496_2.png) [@Mike\_Voidstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Voidstar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/519 "2018-08-19T03:11:44Z")
> [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > > How, if it only allows for a mechanical limit to an event you claim is so rare as to not matter to anyone, does it destroy the game for almost everyone? > > cause changing of bump mechanic with a damage Multiplier as example kills all larger fleets and capital fleet engangements. What? No one said to make bumping do any kind of damage to a ships hull. The proposed solution is a module that can allow a ship to enter warp without aligning after a 5 minute spool up. That hurts no one except bad gankers, and only benefits those who already prepare for the worst. > [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > > How, if it only allows for a mechanical limit to an event you claim is so rare as to not matter to anyone, does it destroy the game for almost everyone? > > cause changing of bump mechanic with a damage Multiplier as example kills all larger fleets and capital fleet engangements. > > ![](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_voidstar/40/13197_1.png) Mike\_Voidstar: > > > I’m not just looking to limit bumping for the 3 freighters that get bumped for hours. I’m looking to restore balance for every freighter that gets bumped for more than 5 minutes. > > you only Need a JF or a web alt … or just dont overload your freighter with ■■■■ Sometimes even prepared people get caught. Situations are rarely solved by whatever comes after “All you have to do is…” > [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > > The point was made that it’s not balanced if one side only needs a bumper for an extended time and the other side has to have it’s fleet present at all times, and still be unlucky. > > whats wrong with the single bumper ? he cant kill you xD he just can kill your time -\> log off and come back next day or so No. Reasonable counterplay or gameplay solutions do not ever include “Stop Playing” as the best, let alone only option. > [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > if you get ganked you cant bring backup ^^ if you get bumped and you got backup its still useless 😛 you Need your “backup” before you get bumped as a webbing alt or a friend with a webbing char Exactly the balance point that the proposal seeks to address. If the Ganker can wait for his DPS, then the Hauler should be able to call in effective help as well. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/520 "2018-08-19T08:43:56Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > But note a key difference between the two: AFK cloaking serves a useful purpose, even if it isn’t the ideal solution, by being the only counter to an overpowered intel tool. And killing the imprudent and foolish is not a useful purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 8:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363/521 "2018-08-19T08:49:15Z")
> [@Mike\_Voidstar](#): > > I didn’t say it happens every trip. I said it happens all the time, as in it’s a common occurrence. Actually this is speculation. And when the Red Frog report was available, the answer was “No.” > [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > the issue isnt the ganking…it is the lack of being able to play the game like a moron… Fixed it for you. > [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > And in one example someone said he saw a bump that lasted 3-4 hours until war dec went live… > That alone is unnacceptable… Then make that case. Don’t go around arguing for a general module to nerf all bumping. > [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > and honestly…if it were me…and i was bumped for that long…not only would be taking pics or running Fraps or something…but i would be making petitions after 10 minutes elapsed… Yeah…and guess what we see none of that so it makes me wonder, did it really happen? I tend to believe Dom but there is nothing to support these claims of extended bumping aside from it happend to a friend of a friend of a friend of a guy who knew this dude… Sorry, these claims of extended bumping sound like very, very, very rare events or they simply just do not exist except in the fevered imagination of some carebears who just can’t cowboy up. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363.md?page=25) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/balancing-hi-sec-freighter-bump-mechanics/95363.md?page=27)