# Belief, Gods, Reality and how little it matters **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463 "2023-10-01T12:53:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 10:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/61 "2023-10-03T10:45:29Z")
Gonna move this into the new reply to keep it less confusing… > [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > As for those who don’t yet know God, that’s what the Amarr are here for. No. Not ‘those who don’t yet know God’, those _who never had the chance_. Remember, _everyone_ but the inhabitants of _one island_ on Athra had rejected God. All of humanity. Everyone who lived on Caldari Prime after the gates shut down, but before First Contact with the Amarr _had no chance to know God_. Everyone who lived on Intaki during that time. Or Matar. All of the Ni-Kunni prior to First Contact. Every inhabitant of **every** other world between 8061 AD and 21423 AD by the Amarr calendar. Everyone who lived anywhere other than Athra for _thirteen thousand years_. Why damn _them_? Now then… > [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > But it’s not for us to speculate, we couldn’t even begin to understand how God makes his decisions, nor is it right for us to criticise Him. He is far greater than all of us. **NO.** First off, the ability to speculate, the ability to question, the ability to criticize? These are things _God_ gave us. To refuse to use God’s gifts would be _rude_, at the very least. But even more importantly, while still being the _exact same point_: _Why_ can’t we begin to understand how God makes his decisions? That, too, was a choice **God** made. He could have made us perfectly capable of understanding his reasoning. Heck, the Amarr scriptures comprise more volumes than any reasonable library can physically hold, he could have, I dunno, _explained it all very thoroughly_, using small words, because apparently he made us morons. He was in control of it all, after all. He had other choices. So why make us so we can’t understand? ---
**Author:** ![Rynna\_Alcerys](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rynna_alcerys/32/499383_2.png) [@Rynna\_Alcerys](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rynna_Alcerys)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/62 "2023-10-03T11:01:42Z")
Is it really that bad to admit that, as a mere human, you probably couldn’t understand the inner workings of a divine being? A being who knows all? A being who has power over all? Surely, in order to understand the mind of God, we would need to be in the same shoes as him. We would need to be gods ourselves. Let’s go back to the ant analogy from earlier (I have named him Antonio the Denier, by the way). An ant does not know why I put two sugars in my Tehan tea, it does not know why I chose to listen to chants this morning, and it does not know why I had my people build a road over its home. The difference between an ant and myself is nothing compared to the difference between myself and God. The two of us, like ants, couldn’t even begin to understand anything about the way God thinks. Sure, you can try, and I know how much you enjoy a good think, but you wouldn’t get close to truly understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/63 "2023-10-03T11:04:47Z")
> [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > Is it really that bad to admit that, as a mere human, you probably couldn’t understand the inner workings of a divine being? A being who knows all? A being who has power over all? Have I at any point claimed I _can_? I haven’t. I’ve simply pointed out that that was a _choice_ God made. > [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > Surely, in order to understand the mind of God, we would need to be in the same shoes as him. We would need to be gods ourselves. And? That doesn’t begin to address the fact that God, having complete control over everything, _could_ have made that happen. > [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > The difference between an ant and myself is nothing compared to the difference between myself and God. You also didn’t _create_ ants. You didn’t _choose_ to make them so much more limited than yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Rynna\_Alcerys](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rynna_alcerys/32/499383_2.png) [@Rynna\_Alcerys](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rynna_Alcerys)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/64 "2023-10-03T11:13:27Z")
Creating life and creating gods are two completely different things. God is the creator, and we are the created. It is that way for a reason. Sure, He could have made us gods, but why would He? I like being human. And I like that the universe has people, dogs, birds, trees, and fish. Would it make more sense for it to be a barren void with a bunch of gods and no non-divine life? That doesn’t sound like a very meaningful or fulfilling existence. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/65 "2023-10-03T11:21:41Z")
> [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > It is that way for a reason. Obviously. > [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > Sure, He could have made us gods, but why would He? Why _wouldn’t_ he? If you were going to make sentient life, would you make it so unbelievably stupid, relative to yourself, that it can’t understand anything but the most basic instructions? And, to return to the earlier parenting analogy: Children can’t understand all of the complexity of their parents’ reasons, but that’s because the human brain takes about 25 years to develop. Parents aren’t _choosing_ to make idiots. > [@Rynna\_Alcerys](#): > > And I like that the universe has people, dogs, birds, trees and fish. Would it make more sense for it to be a barren void with a bunch of gods and no non-divine life? That doesn’t sound like a very meaningful or fulfilling existence. If God has complete control (and thus, so would the created gods that, I assure you, would not be you and I), then one of the following two things must be true: A) these later gods would be fully capable of creating or defining meaning of their own, and do so well enough to have a fulfilling existence. B) God _currently_ has a not ‘very meaningful or fulfilling’ existence. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Rynna\_Alcerys](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rynna_alcerys/32/499383_2.png) [@Rynna\_Alcerys](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rynna_Alcerys)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/66 "2023-10-03T11:40:19Z")
The thing is, if there were a universe inhabited only by divinity, surely at least a few of them would want to create non-divine life, even if the first one didn’t. Then we’re right back where we started. In a universe with multiple all-powerful, all-knowing beings, you and I would still exist. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/67 "2023-10-03T11:57:55Z")
Why? There’s plenty of non-divine option without it being us. 😉 But you miss the larger point. God chose to make us as we are, and present to us rules and choices he _chose_ to make sure we could not properly comprehend. God chose to condemn to eternal torment over 400 successive generations of humanity for a choice they didn’t make, and never had the opportunity to choose differently. God chooses to decide that ‘sin’—failing to live up to requirements imposed for reasons we _cannot understand because God chose that_—will be met with eternal torment. Is any of that incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/68 "2023-10-03T12:07:49Z")
I might be wrong but I think the idea that people are after death either saved or cursed in a strong division to two based on their “loyalty” to God is an oversimplified storybook version of the actual Amarr Rite. The God is supposed to judge all people but I am sure an all-powerful being can divise adequate fates to peoples beyond just dividing everyone into either bliss or oblivion. Also I don’t think “eternal torment” is mainstream; oblivion for those who are not granted eternal life seems at least as commonplace a belief. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/69 "2023-10-03T12:21:05Z")
In the decade+ I’ve been asking these questions of the Amarr, from lowborn to noble, and even clergy, those two possibilities have been raised once. Just now, by you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/70 "2023-10-03T12:39:24Z")
You must talk to a different set of Amarrians, or in a different manner, than I do. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/71 "2023-10-03T13:05:54Z")
See, that’s why I think this whole thing is a crappy charade. This all powerful, all knowing god, created me, exactly the way I am, and pre-destined me (because lets face it, free-will can’t exist if God knows everything we are going to do anyway) to reject him. And then I get punished for the way he _created_ me. And even more ridiculous is this notion that people have to “save” others, despite this all knowing god already knowing the outcome. It’s nothing more than a trap, to siphon people’s hard earned money, to control them and justify genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/72 "2023-10-03T13:47:11Z")
Going to have to echo Elsebeth here. You should broaden both who you speak to and how, because you’re pretty laser focused on something that doesn’t match the majority of the Rite I know. Nor the one I was raised in. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/73 "2023-10-03T14:40:51Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > You must talk to a different set of Amarrians, or in a different manner, than I do. Confirming both that most speak of such things differently than Arrendis does and also that most avoid talking with Arrendis. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/74 "2023-10-03T16:27:10Z")
Can I break out my hypergarlic model of the universe yet ? It would provide answers to some questions. Some of which might even have been asked in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/76 "2023-10-03T16:46:04Z")
A laughable simplification, but yes. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/78 "2023-10-03T17:17:01Z")
Let us begin at the beginning, which is where we begin. At the creation of the Universe, in the form of a hypergarlic, God’s primordial realm was at the centre of the garlic, with each successive universe created forming a new layer of the 12-dimensional hypergarlic. Humanity inhabits one of the middle layers of the garlic, and the Sefrim are native to a layer closer to the celestial core, while the layers further from the core than our own, are inhabited by a different class of being. Demons. “But that just sounds like a hyperonion to me”, I hear you say. True, wherein I reveal the reason why hypergarlic, rather than hyperonion. Garlic has _cloves_. i.e. parallel universes. THUS, we can reject and/or reconcile the concepts of “eternal punishment”, “a loving god”, “eternal reward” etc. by the movemenf between layers of the hypergarlic, AND movement between _cloves_. If you life righteously, you are promoted inwardly towards the hypergarlic core, whereas behave unrighteously, you are demoted skinward, into the hellish realms of the demons. Live a life of mediocrity, you are moved sideways to a different clove of the garlic. Neat, huh ? Explains everything, reconciles everything, accommodates everything. It is the perfect theophilosophical model of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/79 "2023-10-03T17:40:53Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > Explains everything, reconciles everything, accommodates everything. What a remarkably familiar refrain. I wonder where I’ve heard it before. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/80 "2023-10-03T17:46:12Z")
I can think of three possibilities. 1. something that you wrote that I forgot that I read. 2. something I wrote that you forgot that you read. 3. some kind of advertising slogan from someone trying to sell you something you didn’t need. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/81 "2023-10-03T18:18:49Z")
Or basically every single crackpot hypothesis out there. And less crackpot ones. Fringe religions. Mainstream religions. The odd scientific journal. I think the one thing they all have in common is that they’ve been found lacking in one respect or another. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463/82 "2023-10-03T18:55:47Z")
Well to be fair, I usually only break out the hypergarlic model when everyone’s had at least one round of drinks and/or those little sausages on sticks that you get at parties. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/belief-gods-reality-and-how-little-it-matters/422463.md?page=5)