# "Bigger should not mean better!" WAAAAAAAH! **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2020, 7:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859 "2020-03-05T07:35:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sarn\_Melkan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sarn_melkan/32/163863_2.png) [@Sarn\_Melkan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sarn_Melkan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/41 "2020-03-05T19:39:34Z")
I will try to not say many mean words. So lets go: > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Every capship I see docks up at the first sign of a neutral frigate in pocket. If you guys dock because of a frigate, then you are stupid. Just fit an heavy Neut and you can warp off, whenever you want. There is also not a single frigate, that can tank a carrier for long. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > They die. No, not to big ships, but to small ones. Like, 10-20 stealth bombers, You do know what stealthbombers are? They are hard hitting ships with Battleship weapon systems, that are meant to kill big stuff. Did you ever try to fight anything with a stealthbomber? They literally have zero tank. The typical Stealthbomber cant kill a single NPC frig. Thats what they do. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > … which if you added up the cost, wouldn’t come close to the cost of the capship they just killed, nevermind the skilling requirements. So a fleet of 20 people can work more isk efficient, then you alone? Do you have a single case, where thats not the case? With 20 destroyers you can start ganking freighters, thats part of the game. Brining friends helps you to do stuff with less skills and ISK. They are either stupid, or they where talking about your ratting carrier. If you fit tank on your carrier, they wont have problems saving your ass. Fit yourself an oversized AB Loki and you can propably fight 20 stealthbombers alone. If they dont arrive in time, then because you couldnt deliver a Cyno. Thats on you. Prepare a cyno and they can save you. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > I ask you, are capships better in terms of cost? Yes, by a huge margin. After insurance my combat carrier costs as much as our fleet rattlesnake. My carrier wont die, as long as we have FAX on grid, my rattle will die against high alpha. Did you ever try to fight a ball of HAW dreads without bringing caps yourself? > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Mobility? Jumpdrives? Cynos? Super sick? Goons can defend a whole region, thanks to capitals. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Are capships better at hitting targets, and applying damage to those targets, with the big weapons that they use? Yes, capitals tend to have much better application than battleships. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Are capships better in terms of access to space? Did you ever try to fly a normal fleet of subcaps into enemy null sec? Because capitals will kick you out. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Are capships better in terms of speed? Instant appear button (cyno)? > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > How about signature resolution… Did you ever compare the locktimes of a NAS carrier with a battlecruiser? Also: - Naglfar: 85mm - Rokh: 75mm - Raven: 85mm Some capitals DO have a better ScanRes than some battleships. To keep it short. If we ignore scanning, capitals can do everything better. They are harder to kill and most of the time they are even cheaper. They are easy to safe and are oppressive against subcaps. Look at every major nullsec battle and wonder, why they used caps, because they are super strong. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/42 "2020-03-05T21:04:48Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > So drop the price of capships, drop the risk in using them, drop the skilling requirements, drop the restrictions on highsec, make them hit targets better and apply damage better, etc. etc. etc. No, piss off. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/43 "2020-03-05T21:11:08Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > > > Caps are great at taking down other caps… so they need to be nerfed more? > > Who is it that keeps saying they do? > > I may have missed it, but I couldnt see one call for a specific nerf or even a general one of any kind. The most recent calls for nerfs have been on reddit, and among the CSM. CCP has already recently announced nerfs to titans, and there yet are more nerfs being looked at for capships. This is a continuing and ongoing saga. I’m not sure why people on these forums claim to not see/not know about the complaints about capships, and agenda to forever nerf them. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/44 "2020-03-05T21:12:39Z")
> [@Wander\_Prian](#): > > A single capital is always vulnerable as they are designed to be used as part of a fleet. My complaint isn’t that a single capital is always vulnerable. My point is, aren’t they already vulnerable enough? Do they really need more nerfs? ---
**Author:** ![FairyTail\_Omaristos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fairytail_omaristos/32/145000_2.png) [@FairyTail\_Omaristos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/FairyTail_Omaristos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/45 "2020-03-05T21:30:04Z")
Boring regurgitation of old topic. Cba. #inb4lock Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/46 "2020-03-05T21:38:51Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > This is a continuing and ongoing saga. I’m not sure why people on these forums claim to not see/not know about the complaints about capships, and agenda to forever nerf them. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > The most recent calls for nerfs have been on reddit Well you answered that, because Reddit is for tubes and incest fans ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/47 "2020-03-05T21:44:17Z")
> [@Sarn\_Melkan](#): > > If you guys dock because of a frigate, then you are stupid. Just fit an heavy Neut and you can warp off, whenever you want. There is also not a single frigate, that can tank a carrier for long. Well, you are wrong. The single frigate could (just one example of many) be a Sabre. It drops a bubble, the capship can’t warp off, and ‘buddies’ (a group of frigates) soon appear to destroy the capship in quick order. I see this scenario every day in my area of space, almost every time I log in. Naturally, I’m not going to show killmails because I don’t want the horrible trolls of this forum to know where I am. > [@](#): > > > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > > > They die. No, not to big ships, but to small ones. Like, 10-20 stealth bombers, > > You do know what stealthbombers are? They are hard hitting ships with Battleship weapon systems, that are meant to kill big stuff… Thats what they do. Of course that’s what they are, and of course that’s what they do. But you misunderstand. When the other side calls for capship nerfs, they don’t like it when I say, for instance, “Don’t you know what carriers are? They are ships with subcap-sized weapons, that are designed to track and kill subcaps. That’s what they do.” So, lets be consistent in our arguments. If the other side says I must “respect the design of the stealth bomber,” then they have to respect the design of the carrier. They can’t say they will ignore the design of the carrier, but I must respect the design of the stealth bomber. That’s not how it works. > [@](#): > > So a fleet of 20 people can work more isk efficient, then you alone? Do you have a single case, where thats not the case? With 20 destroyers you can start ganking freighters, thats part of the game. Brining friends helps you to do stuff with less skills and ISK. Again you misunderstand. I have no problem with 20 bombers destroying a lone capship. I _DO_ have a problem with 20 bombers being able to destroy a lone capship, and then the same people run to the forums screaming that capships need more nerfs, because maybe it should only take 10, or 5, or pretty soon, 1. > [@](#): > > If you fit tank on your carrier, they wont have problems saving your ass. Fit yourself an oversized AB Loki and you can propably fight 20 stealthbombers alone. If they dont arrive in time, then because you couldnt deliver a Cyno. Thats on you. Prepare a cyno and they can save you. Again you are wrong. In fact it’s quite easy to swap out into “nothing but tank” after you’ve dropped your mobile depot or kicked out your Nestor or whatever, The capship is still going down quite quickly before any response can be mounted or before any help can arrive. And before you totally misunderstand, as you are guaranteed to do, I’M FINE WITH THAT. Just don’t say that capships need yet even MORE nerfs, because they don’t go down quickly enough to ‘nano-gangs.’ > [@](#): > > > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > > > I ask you, are capships better in terms of cost? > > Yes, by a huge margin. After insurance my combat carrier costs as much as our fleet rattlesnake. I don’t know where you are getting your information. Insurance was nerfed for capships. I don’t think it’s even worth it to buy anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/48 "2020-03-05T21:45:54Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > The single frigate could (just one example of many) be a Sabre. That would be a neat trick. You are clearly _very_ knowledgeable about this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/49 "2020-03-05T21:47:48Z")
Unless any of these so called SB Gank Squads that beg for nerfs to their targets is here to say anything, I call BS on this witchhunt. Edit: Actually, its lancing at windmills ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/50 "2020-03-05T21:50:45Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Like, 10-20 stealth bombers, which if you added up the cost, wouldn’t come close to the cost of the capship they just killed, nevermind the skilling requirements. Cost? 10-20 CUSTOMERS against ONE customer, works correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/51 "2020-03-05T21:51:28Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > Cost? > > 10-20 CUSTOMERS against ONE customer, works correctly. Great. So why do we need more nerfs again? ---
**Author:** ![Sarn\_Melkan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sarn_melkan/32/163863_2.png) [@Sarn\_Melkan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sarn_Melkan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/52 "2020-03-05T22:23:39Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > The single frigate > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Sabre ? So intel warned you about a Sabre (no frig). Do what every other null bear does, warp your carrier at 100 at the gate, bubble it and decloak him with fighters. All he can do is burn back. If you are super lazy, get an Arazu with Sebos for tackle, then he has no chance to warp away. We are still talking about an destroyer and you got an NSA. If your intel says: “gang of 10, including sabre” then you are not fighting against a single frig and should propably get like 3 more friends. You can also Smartbomb the bubble and warp away, if he decloaks again you lock him, because he cant cloak that fast again. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > They are ships with subcap-sized weapons, that are designed to track and kill subcaps. That’s what they do. But they still do that pretty good. Check this Battle Report: > **[zKillboard.com / Related Kills | Y-MPWL | 2020-01-30 20:00](https://zkillboard.com/related/30003726/202001302000/o/%7B%22A%22%3A%5B%22154104258%22%5D%2C%22B%22%3A%5B%5D%7D/)** > > A battle took place in Y-MPWL (Providence) involving 173 pilots who lost a total of 9,912,974,089.40 isk Rekking Crew, a capital heavy lowsec group against providence. The providence numbers are a bit low on this BR, because they didnt kill anything big, so not everybody appeared on the killmail. Providence is able to field 70-100 nightmares in a fleet. Thats pretty scary. Nightmares also have an AB bonus, so they are much better at sig-tanking, so carriers should have problems, right? 30 carriers did just alpha them off the field. 30 carriers are able to counter a 90 people nightmare fleet, without risking anything, but some fighters. Now imagine Battlecruiseres or Battleships without an AB bonus, they get hit even harder. Trust me, Carriers do apply really well against subcaps, thats why you only see frigats and 100 ab crusiers fighting them. A Battleship is also good against subcaps, but not against frigats, you get the point? > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Again you misunderstand. I have no problem with 20 bombers destroying a lone capship. I _DO_ have a problem with 20 bombers being able to destroy a lone capship, and then the same people run to the forums screaming that capships need more nerfs, because maybe it should only take 10, or 5, or pretty soon, 1. Look at the BR, they do need a nerf. Not because of 1 or 2 carriers, but what happens, if you put numbers of them on the field. If you got a big fleet, including FAX, then the only way to kill them is to alpha them. Every big null battle in the last years did the following. Carriers send SS fighters, to kill enemy fighters, Titans volley eachother with doomsdays at max range. Subcaps that appear anywhere die. Thats why they need nerfs and why they still need nerfs, because they scale too hard. Your ideas would brake every big battle and the last thing we need ist stronger null blocs. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > swap out into “nothing but tank” after you’ve dropped your mobile depot Im not talking about refitting, but ratting with a full tank fit. Less efficient, but thats the point. You should be able to reach 1,5m EHP without overheat. Lets say all 20 bombers are perfectly fit, polarized and dont need to reload. The fleet does about 20k dps. Then you still got 75 seconds after they landed on grid to safe your ass. If you get on comms and ask for an FAX, the moment you get tackled and have a cyno ready, then this is more then enought time to save your ass. Every normal nano gang will have alot less DPS. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > I don’t know where you are getting your information. Insurance was nerfed for capships. Thanatos platin insurance pays around 380m after insurance cost. A simple combat carrier Fit is 1,8b or so. So roughtly 1,4b loss. Rattlesnake of the same group: [Rattlesnake | TheLastSparton | Killmail | zKillboard](https://zkillboard.com/kill/81987738/) around 1b loss. If you fight 20 rattles with support against 20 carriers with support, i can tell you, who will win. The caps are pretty ISK efficent. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > I don’t think it’s even worth it to buy anymore. Your loss. I personally own 5 cap cap toons right now (JDC 5 and stuff) If my PC could handle more, i would get more. They need far more nerfs to not be worth it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/53 "2020-03-05T23:17:48Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > That would be a neat trick. He got me here. ---
**Author:** ![Wander\_Prian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wander_prian/32/394208_2.png) [@Wander\_Prian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wander_Prian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/54 "2020-03-05T23:28:22Z")
Being vulnerable in a single usage case does not mean that the ship is balanced. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/55 "2020-03-05T23:35:34Z")
C’mon guys. It isn’t about the carrier - it is about the imaginary people saying that carriers need to be nerfed. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/56 "2020-03-06T00:18:50Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > So why do we need more nerfs again? It doesn’t work like “if capitals are in no need of a nerf, let’s buff them greatly”. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/57 "2020-03-06T00:31:42Z")
My Oracle should be able to take on 20-man stealth bomber fleets, too. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 3:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/58 "2020-03-06T03:00:47Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > C’mon guys. It isn’t about the carrier - it is about the imaginary people saying that carriers need to be nerfed. There’s one of the ‘imaginary people’ three posts above yours. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 3:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/59 "2020-03-06T03:07:11Z")
He was talking about in PVP fleets, not solo krabbing. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 3:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859/60 "2020-03-06T03:09:21Z")
> [@Sarn\_Melkan](#): > > So intel warned you about a Sabre (no frig). Do what every other null bear does, warp your carrier at 100 at the gate, bubble it and decloak him with fighters Don’t really know what you’re going on about here. Nobody I know or ever have known warps their carrier around gates or tries to PvP with the carrier. It means it’s a DEAD CARRIER (yeah, that’s how OP they are). Maybe you know pilots who can afford to just throw away carriers for the LOLZ. If so, fine, sounds fun. > [@Sarn\_Melkan](#): > > 30 carriers did just alpha them off the field. 30 carriers are able to counter a 90 people nightmare fleet, without risking anything, but some fighters. I have no problem with that. It’s one carrier killing 2-3 battleships each. Sounds completely fair to me. > [@Sarn\_Melkan](#): > > Look at the BR, they do need a nerf. Not because of 1 or 2 carriers, but what happens, if you put numbers of them on the field. If you got a big fleet, including FAX, then the only way to kill them is to alpha them… Thats why they need nerfs and why they still need nerfs Yeah, we will have to agree to disagree here. They don’t need nerfs now, and they didn’t need nerfs a few years ago when CCP nerfed them and I rewarded them for it by un-PLEXing for about a year and a half. But, I’m glad one of you ‘imaginary’ people showed up who want capships nerfed. Next they’ll say you’re one of my sock puppets LOL. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bigger-should-not-mean-better-waaaaaaah/223859.md?page=4)