# Bitter Vets versus Better Vets **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 3, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945 "2021-12-03T15:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/21 "2021-12-03T19:44:25Z")
Probably around a quarter of all players. It’s possible to be dissatisfied with changes (as most players seem to be) without also considering yourself to be a “victim” of anyone or anything. For example, CCP effectively removed my favorite play style from the game a _decade_ ago, but I still don’t consider myself to be a victim. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/22 "2021-12-03T19:45:42Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > (as most players seem to be) {citation needed} > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > but I still don’t consider myself to be a victim. That means you did not lose anything in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/23 "2021-12-03T19:50:43Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > For example, CCP effectively removed my favorite play style from the game a _decade_ ago, but I still don’t consider myself to be a victim. And you still complain about it almost daily across literally hundreds of posts. I’d call that reasonably bitter. Oh and you keep blaming it on the players as well, not CCP. Kind of like Shipwreck with his “bitter vets are poisoning the player base” rather than “CCP keeps losing players by making really poor choices”. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/24 "2021-12-03T19:51:05Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > {citation needed} I said “seem to be,” not “definitely are.” It’s a subjective judgement call based on the perception of the ratio of negative feedback on the forums. The majority of posters appear to be dissatisfied with the changes CCP has been making recently. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That means you did not lose anything in the process. Of course I did. I lost my primary means of entertainment in the game, and as such am actively playing the game much less. That goes considerably beyond the material loss of slightly lower yields, or a stack of Orcas losing 20% of its value (material wealth that I don’t give two shits about). Not all loss is material. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/25 "2021-12-03T19:51:13Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > bitter vets are poisoning the player base bitter vets _are_ poisoning the player base. New players don’t want to join a community of crybaby carebear whiners. ---
**Author:** ![May\_Q\_Cry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/may_q_cry/32/370362_2.png) [@May\_Q\_Cry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/May_Q_Cry)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/26 "2021-12-03T19:57:07Z")
![3ay0mq](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/d/b/fdb520e842c1789d46d524c7496dfa3a8f9cc6d4.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/27 "2021-12-03T20:07:48Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The majority of posters appear to be dissatisfied with the changes CCP has been making recently. Don’t conflate posters with expressions. I can easily log 20 alts just to post the same thing ad nauseam. Don’t make hasty generalizations. The vast majority of the players don’t even care about the forums. They only care when they are told by a puppet master to go there and whine. So no, they don’t “seem to”. Because you don’t know what “most players” actually think. You only see complains, does not mean they are worth listening . > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Of course I did. I lost my primary means of entertainment in the game, It’s the definition. There is a victim when someone gets to lose something. > A victim is someone who has suffered as a result of someone else’s actions or [beliefs](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/belief), or as a result of [unpleasant](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unpleasant) circumstances. If you don’t consider yourself a victim, that implies you lost nothing in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/29 "2021-12-03T20:11:11Z")
That is why cray-crays gankers exist who apparently cry so much to CCP about carebears “exploiting” the game against them that CCP actually almost kills their preferred gameplay niche? Besides, new players want a comprehensive picture of the game they are about to join. Negativity adds to that picture and adds a very important facet to it: They tell you that not everything is as rose-tinted as people like Shipwreck or the developers want to make you believe it is. Any person with at least 2 braincells should be able to discern ranting from actual negative feedback. If someone tells you “Hey, this is so awesome” in a dev blog, for instance, and then you look into the feedback topic and see lots of people telling the devs or other people why this is not awesome, how this breaks so many things, how this introduces frustrating experiences without positive rewards, then this is something a clever new player can take into account and weigh against each other to come to a conclusion whether this game is worth their time and effort (which is significant for EVE) or not. Unwashed, unintelligent people who just want to try something new don’t give a damn about “negativity” or bitter vets or toxicity anyway because they don’t read or try to learn something before starting a game anyway. They just end up on these forums or other platforms, asking questions that have been answered 17 times already. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/30 "2021-12-03T20:17:05Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Don’t conflate posters with expressions. I can easily log 20 alts just to post the same thing ad nauseam. It doesn’t seem that people are doing that, though. I haven’t seen any significant attempts at circle-jerking arguments with alts. Maybe it’s happening in the industrial subsection threads, I don’t know. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Don’t make hasty generalizations. The vast majority of the players don’t even care about the forums. Agreed, but we still can use the forums (and places like Reddit) as a sample of the population at large. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > > > Of course I did. I lost my primary means of entertainment in the game, > > It’s the definition. There is a victim when someone gets to lose something. > > > A victim is someone who has suffered as a result of someone else’s actions or [beliefs](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/belief), or as a result of [unpleasant](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unpleasant) circumstances. > > If you don’t consider yourself a victim, that implies you lost nothing in the process. The definition talks about suffering, and not loss. Still, it’s a very literal interpretation of the term, and isn’t the one we’re discussing in terms of EVE. There’s being a victim (e.g. “my train stalled and I got to work late”), and then there’s being a _victim_ (e.g. “you didn’t use the right pronoun when referring to me, so I am a victim of systemic oppression!”). Words can have varying interpretations, and what goes on in the EVE forums deals much more with the latter example. Anyway, other people can label me as a victim if they want to (since I _did_ technically lose/suffer as an effect of these changes), but I’m not going to do it to myself. I accept my loss as a matter of circumstance, just as if my train was late and I didn’t make it to work on time. I might be a victim in the technical sense of the term, but I’m not _oppressed,_ like the people who lost mining yields believe themselves to be. > [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > Community Of Dick Eaters What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/31 "2021-12-03T20:18:55Z")
Wait 5yrs is considered a bitter vet??? Holy ■■■■ im eve old then ☹ Wasnt ready for that ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/32 "2021-12-03T20:20:39Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > So no, they don’t “seem to”. Because you don’t know what “most players” actually think. You only see complains, does not mean they are worth listening . CCP clearly follows this line of thought. That is how we ended up with their precious huge nut-job of the mining revamp that they had to redo almost from the ground up since they announced the changes, they had to postpone major parts of the project to a later date because they did not know how EVE works, nor do they know how to code or listen to people. Latest example in this series of trainwrecks is the concord pull exploit flip-flop initiated by a clearly bat-schit crazy dumb GM, reverted by a knowledgable and competent CCP developer (I can’t believe that I say that, believe me) and then reverted again by another bat-schit crazy unknowledgable GM who did not read any of the concerns in the very topic under which he posted the policy update, so that the CSM had to point out these things to this person and trigger the reversal of the policy yet again. If you are so adamantly convinced of your own ignorance towards your users, I think that someone who points that out is not a bitter vet trying to “poison” newbies. These people are just right in their negativity towards CCP. And people who keep insisting on that it’s just fine, are the butter vets that grease newbies into the game to be thrown into a toxic grinder instituted by the developers and these irreclaimables with their rose-tinted goggles. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/33 "2021-12-03T20:23:32Z")
The mining changes we’re not bad at the start. People just can’t read or look into things further than just the words they read. The first changes were better than what we are seeing now. (For the most part\*) ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/34 "2021-12-03T20:27:58Z")
None of the changes are any good. None. Not a single one. They create nothing but tedium, frustrating gameplay and fake increased resource availability. Not to mention that CCP throws an important lesson from the ship production (the purported disconnect between caps and subs) out of the window already: Instead of applying this principle, which they lauded as the silver bullet to all problems with ship production, to mining as well (ie. introducing new mining spaces that they can control properly and surgically) they flood the cluster with resources again and pair that with frustrating tedium to “balance it out”. this is neither good nor desireable. It’s lazy, it’s unorignal and it improves nothing. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/35 "2021-12-03T20:35:57Z")
An increase in mining production by the mining barges/exhumers. They all gained EHP allowing different ones to be used in different scenarios. The increase in available ores, the nerf to excavator drone/mining drone mining, increased mining boost for the orca, reduction in materials for caps, reasons to pick between fast yet inefficient mining to clear out the trash ore vs high yield normal cycle time mining for an increase in ore yields. Not everything is perfect but it is a step in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Skriven\_Penshar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/skriven_penshar/32/249904_2.png) [@Skriven\_Penshar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Skriven_Penshar)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/36 "2021-12-03T20:49:33Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It’s the definition. There is a victim when someone gets to lose something. > > > A victim is someone who has suffered as a result of someone else’s actions or [beliefs](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/belief), or as a result of [unpleasant](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/unpleasant) circumstances. "Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.” - Dalai Lama, Haruki Murakami, or M. Kathleen Casey … Take your pick. You don’t have a choice in what happens to you, but you can choose to be the victim or not be the victim. Listen to Ali In the Jungle by the Hours … Everybody gets knocked down, Everybody gets knocked down, How quick are you gonna’ get up? Just how are you gonna’ get up? [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/c/3/8/c3844600238de8a49307b00485a4907dead7bc5e.jpeg "The Hours - Ali In The Jungle") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxNX5M_XSeA) ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/37 "2021-12-03T20:55:03Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > It doesn’t seem that people are doing that, though. I haven’t seen any significant attempts at circle-jerking arguments with alts. Maybe it’s happening in the industrial subsection threads, I don’t know. I’m not saying that is happening. I’m saying, don’t conflate posters with expressions. Because otherwise you make it valuable to do that. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Agreed, but we still can use the forums (and places like Reddit) as a sample of the population at large. No. The forum participants are a sample of the eve system, but it does not mean it can be used as a **representative** sample. Using it this way is the definition of a _hasty generalization_ . All we can say, is that there exist people, who express this opinion. Does not mean they are right. Does not mean they actually care. Then, if we know the total amout of accounts, we can deduce from that the least part of the accounts whose owner make them express this opinion. Same restrictions apply. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The definition talks about suffering, and not loss. Yes, so ? If you consider you lose something (that is, you suffer a loss), then you are a victim. The **contrapositive** is : if you don’t consider yourself as a victim, it means you did not lose anything in the process. That’s basic definition and logic, no circle jerking. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Still, it’s a very literal interpretation of the term, and isn’t the one we’re discussing in terms of EVE. Sorry, I thought we were talking about bitter vets, and how they ARE victims of CCP changes. And how victim blaming’s been a very toxic, and bad for the game, habit on the forums. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Anyway, other people can label me as a victim if they want to (since I _did_ technically lose/suffer as an effect of these changes), You misunderstood. It’s not about the existence of a single thing, but the net difference resulting from the action. If I take an action, and you end up having a net negative from that action, then you are a victim. But If I chose to buy your over priced item, then you are not a victim 🙂 That implies that “you lost nothing” that I wrote before is meant “in regard to what you won” : that is, you were able to find something valuable from the change, that compensated from the loss. You lost some, you won some, the balance of the two makes you feel not like a victim. (And I’m not saying you are wrong, BTW) > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > None of the changes are any good. None. Not a single one. Making rorqs worse miners than exhumer is a good change. Making barges and exhumer FINALLY able to fit is a good change. I hoped CCP would also finally divide the size of rocks by like 10, along the cycle of miners. Ten times less big but 20 times as many. And also increase the warp radius, to like 15km instead of 2.5. But well … > [@Skriven\_Penshar](#): > > but you can choose to be the victim or not be the victim. That’s victim blaming. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/38 "2021-12-03T20:59:13Z")
I’ve been in this game since 2008. Over that time I’ve also been somewhat active on the forums and know who the CCP apologists/shills are. Rather than trying to read their nonsensical posts (because i know exactly what they’re going to say), I’ve just blocked them. Makes life on the forums a lot more palatable. Yeah, guess that makes me a newbie poisoning, cynaical, CCP trashing bittervet. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/39 "2021-12-03T21:01:10Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > Yeah, guess that makes me a newbie poisoning, cynaical, CCP trashing bittervet. No, but insulting people for the sole reason they disagree with you (apologist) makes you a ■■■■■■■ asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/40 "2021-12-03T21:11:22Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You misunderstood. It’s not about the existence of a single thing, but the net difference resulting from the action. If I take an action, and you end up having a net negative from that action, then you are a victim. But If I chose to buy your over priced item, then you are not a victim 🙂 > > That implies that “you lost nothing” that I wrote before is meant “in regard to what you won” : that is, you were able to find something valuable from the change, that compensated from the loss. You lost some, you won some, the balance of the two makes you feel not like a victim. What if I lost something, and gained nothing in return, but I accept the loss? I don’t think I’m denying (or anyone else is for that matter) that people who lose things are “victims” in the technical sense of the term. But the missing component of the equation when we talk about what being a victim in EVE entails is the presence of targeted/systemic oppression, which is a more abstract and expounded concept of the original term. When players talk about being victims of change in EVE (or the actions of other players, e.g. via ganking), they’re actually talking about oppression, and not purely material loss. And as such when we reference the concept of victim mentality, we’re not talking about players making a big deal out of material losses alone, but of the tendency of players to claim targeted/systemic oppression where there in fact isn’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/41 "2021-12-03T21:13:27Z")
And calling me an asshole makes you what, angel face? Welcome to my block list, too. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945.md?page=3)