# Bitter Vets versus Better Vets **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 3, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945 "2021-12-03T15:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 2:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/63 "2021-12-04T02:37:48Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You go on and on with it, multiple posts on multiple topics the past while. It’s getting tiresome. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/f/a/dfacee8cd668f670643fee72ceaa9011ae480af5.png) ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 2:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/64 "2021-12-04T02:52:44Z")
Remember, you can’t reason with people who act like this: ![Crying Gif](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/c/8/7c83b33f79ee745e662405b68177b8e0c1391ed0.gif) If ever there was a “victim”, it’s that… thing. It’s the modern disease. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 3:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/65 "2021-12-04T03:05:11Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > You can’t accuse Kezrai of using a strawman if the only thing you post is a picture with 2 extreme sides. Okay, let me be real. It is propaganda meant to draw attention and further my agenda. Naturally, I think that players are far more diverse than the false dichotomy that this meme would seem to suggest. However, the simple fact of the matter is that simple(er) memes tend to have a lot more reach than massive walls of text. So yeah, I did strip out nuance because I was trying to use smart mass communication strats in order to maximize my reach and persuasiveness. And, let’s continue to be real here - this isn’t exactly an unfair representation of the bitter vet. Of course, very few players will neatly fit into either of those categories. However, that does mean that there are no observable patterns of behavior, or that my archetypal examples lack any sort of descriptive power. Oh, and none of this changes the fact that Kerzai and others either intentionally, or unintentionally misrepresent my arguments, and then attack those misrepresentations. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 3:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/66 "2021-12-04T03:14:58Z")
No you were pretty much spot on. No need to try and “soften the blow” to “avoid confrontation or hurt feelings”. There’s two ways of dealing with change and adversity: - Crying over it and raging about how terrible it all is - discussing it with the intent to add to it all, while adapting and looking for opportunities “this game sucks”, “unbsubbed!”, “don’t pay for this garbage” and other stuff that goes on in carebear rage threads like the one on the mining reform. Not helpful, not mature, manchildren (m/f). ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 3:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/67 "2021-12-04T03:43:45Z")
So yeah, CCP can actually make mistakes, and they can actually make changes that suck the fun out of the game. Those are real issues that need to be addressed. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > So the question is then, why would you make the effort to adapt, to something that will anyhow be removed by the dev in only a matter of time ? Something you can’t enjoy anymore “because reasons” ? However, I look at change from a very different perspective. Personally, my favorite part of a PvE activity is “solving it”. I love figuring out optimal strats -it’s like a puzzle. So, the above quote is a weird perspective to me. I’m not saying that it’s wrong, or that you’re wrong for having it, but I just don’t look at things in that way. Personally, changes excite me. Not only do I enjoy figuring things out, but I often find that I benefit greatly from my efforts. Anyway, I do understand that some players like stability and predictability, that some players just straight up like certain things the way that they are, and that it is a lot harder for newbros and casuals to chase new strats and opportunities because of a lack of isk, SP, player knowledge, and/or time. So, I am not unsympathetic to the concerns of such individuals. However, that still doesn’t mean that there aren’t a ton of players that like change, or that their desires, values, and concerns are any less valid. At the end of the day, players do have competing values and priorities. And it’s up to CCP to try to balance all of them. Unfortunately, however, there are a lot of players out there who do not seem to consider or value the play styles, priorities, and values of other players, and who assert that any time CCP doesn’t cater to their particular desires, that CCP is “ruining” an activity or the game. I’m sure many people will take issue with this meme, but damn if it doesn’t encapsulate how I frequently feel. ![Adapt or Die Scrubs](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/d/6/7d6085cbc0ca5e4cf419c6bb0d20c682fa296c18.png) ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 3:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/68 "2021-12-04T03:52:49Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > > > You go on and on with it, multiple posts on multiple topics the past while. It’s getting tiresome. > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/f/a/dfacee8cd668f670643fee72ceaa9011ae480af5.png) Yes, but you see, the difference is, I can actually quote you doing what I said, and link your posts. You can only make up another imaginary caricature from whole cloth. You’re trying to paint pretty much everyone with a complaint about CCP/EVE as a 'bitter vet", even though the vast majority of your examples have nothing to do with vets or bitterness or long-term frustration with multiple bad decisions by CCP. Your cartoonish OP is simply portraying as black-and-white every kind of complainer, whiner, rage-quitter, and noob who didn’t research what EVE was actually about as a “bitter vet”, and contrasting it against some sort of paragon of virtue which frankly, I’ve never met in a decade and a half of EVEing. I’m sorry, but you’ve basically drawn your own strawman argument right in your OP, and then started crying about it as soon as someone challenges it with a rational response. Get off the high horse, Shipwreck. Other people’s opinions about the game are as valid as yours, and it certainly doesn’t help “community spirit” to start tar-and-feathering everyone who has a valid criticism with your ad-hominem witchhunt. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 4:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/69 "2021-12-04T04:22:25Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You’re trying to paint pretty much everyone with a complaint about CCP/EVE as a 'bitter vet", Yeah, I have personally criticized CCP (my last video was titled 25 minutes of me complaining about monetization), I think players have many valid complaints, and I have expressed support for their complaints through supportive comments and likes. I don’t have a problem with people who have complaints, or with people who provide constructive criticism. I do, however, have a problem with space karens, and will continue to call them out for their bad behavior. Also, you do realize that it’s not a witchhunt when you openly admit to trying to sabotage others and the game, right? ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/4/2/b42131f120e24d07e1da1b3a0a63ceaddf116d00.png) I do not think that this strat is good for our community, or our game. And I will do what I can to fight it. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/70 "2021-12-04T05:10:18Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > I think this image is misleading! I love theorycrafting how to gain an advantage within the mechanics provided when CCP implements changes (nerfs and gameplay removal mostly lol). I also think that as customers were allowed to be critical of CCP. Does it cross the line at times where it can be toxic and off putting to new players? Sure **but** I’d rather have prospective new players aware of how literally terrible CCP is. I agree with everything you said up until the “but”. - I disagree with the assertion that CCP is that awful, or that this game is that bad (I look at it like a flawed gem) - I disagree with the idea that sabotaging new player acquisition and retention is good for new players or the game as a whole - and I maintain that at least some of the people who are “warning newbros” aren’t actually trying to help newbros. For example, some of these guys are just vindictive assholes who are trying to punish CCP by sabotaging the game. And then you got things like “sour grape foxes”, or people who incorrectly assume that just because they don’t like Eve, that means that other players won’t like it either. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/4/3/0/430aaeb5b413e7c1d6f4453e8d271a3ceb53ccab.jpeg) Now, I have to stress that I do not think that everyone fits into one of these categories. And, I’m willing to bet that at least some people think that they are either helping newbros by “warning them”, or helping the game by hurting CCP’s bottom line. However, I still disagree with the assetions that CCP is awful, that newbros need to be warned, and that this is good for the game. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/7/2/7724cbaf23da16a7f68073dfc434545a9d53d2a4.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/71 "2021-12-04T06:33:13Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > Unfortunately, however, there are a lot of players out there who do not seem to consider or value the play styles, priorities, and values of other players, and who assert that any time CCP doesn’t cater to their particular desires, that CCP is “ruining” an activity or the game. Unfortunately there are developers of the game that do not consider or value the play styles, priorities and players when they make changes. See first iteration Prospect changes, the Procurer changes, gas flooding, actually threatening null after the HAW and capital changes, and so on. You remember all these things, right? And funny thing with the last picture: Towards the end of Blackout, even hunters started to complain about lack of targets and bots reporting them so that their farmer bots could disappear. -Rose-tinted irreclaimables. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 7:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/72 "2021-12-04T07:12:03Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > Bitter vet whinebears should uninstall! Hangon there. You’re telling some 80+% of players they should uninstall? Bittervets make up around 40% of online numbers, another 40% fit into your “whinebear” category. Keep in mind only a very small % of players ever use these forums but; Over 2000 responses more critical than supportive. > [@From Extraction to Production](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production/336331/2287): > > Dear Capsuleers, We thank you for the time you’ve spent exploring the changes and providing valuable feedback. We’ve spent this week listening to podcasts, reading forum posts and blogs, and interacting with Discord communities and so forth. It’s rare for us to update Sisi (and post a Dev Blog) this early in the process, but this is an important one and we wanted as many eyes on it as possible. We also want to thank the CSM for their input and help in shaping the plan, the details of which you… Damnit, Part 2 - over 2,200 responses and still climbing. Some a bit more positive but still a lot of WTF are you doing CCP. > [@From Extraction To Production: Update](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887): > > Dear Capsuleers, We thank you for the time you’ve spent exploring the changes and providing valuable feedback. We’ve spent this week listening to podcasts, reading forum posts and blogs, and interacting with Discord communities and so forth. It’s rare for us to update Sisi (and post a Dev Blog) this early in the process, but this is an important one and we wanted as many eyes on it as possible. We also want to thank the CSM for their input and help in shaping the plan, the details of which you… By all means though, if your suggstion gains traction - I’m in. No fun playing Eve if the few left are all “Nice”. On that, what would you do? You’re certainly not “nice” (when it comes to play style) and would I imagine have led many to the point of “bittervet” and or “whinebear”. I wonder if you should take some responsibility for the attitudes of those you believe should uninstall. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 7:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/73 "2021-12-04T07:16:03Z")
> [@una\_noche\_mas](#): > > Can you make an educated guess around the percentage of **“ certifiably insane “** population in this current active player base? I’ve been tested. They couldn’t “certify” me but I still play Eve, soooo… ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 7:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/74 "2021-12-04T07:16:37Z")
OP posts a thread complaining about Vets who complain… 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 7:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/75 "2021-12-04T07:57:46Z")
I’m sure the PCU will decide who’s bitter and who’s better. Looks like bitter’s winning from where i’m looking. Or maybe CCP is just messing up the whole space station and bitter’s are getting the better deal by switching off after training skills for years to be dumped on. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/76 "2021-12-04T08:03:39Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > You’re telling some 80+% of players they should uninstall? Yes, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/77 "2021-12-04T08:07:22Z")
> [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](#): > > The capital indy changes were good. I’m sorry but you are aware those changes would not have been needed had CCP not screwed up by turning Rorquals into mega mining machines and allowed them to be multiboxed to the point they broke the game. > [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](#): > > Smaller fries will be able to compete with the almighty rorqual Oh to be so innocent or is it naive? How do you think everyone mined before Rorquals got so broken? We used Hulks and A Rorqual. All those Rorqual alts will be flying Hulks, so insteasd of 50 Rorquals being controlled by one guy it will be 49 Hulks and 1 Rorqual. The “smaller fries” are still screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/78 "2021-12-04T08:34:08Z")
That really is a bit sad. My ideal would be for the game to get better, hence giving those you want to see leave reason to play. I wonder if we could turn back time a few years would CCP actually listen to the masses who said “these changes will be bad for the long term health of the game”. I imagine there would be far less “bitter vets” and “whinybears” if they had. ---
**Author:** ![Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/avaelica_kuershin/32/478139_2.png) [@Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Avaelica_Kuershin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/79 "2021-12-04T08:41:36Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > I’m sorry but you are aware those changes would not have been needed had CCP not screwed up by turning Rorquals into mega mining machines and allowed them to be multiboxed to the point they broke the game. I got the impression that CCP was warned about the consequences but decided that they knew better. ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/80 "2021-12-04T08:41:56Z")
No reason to play thousands have already left, the game will failscade very soon. Not what I want but after years of training, the company, CCP is not listening. Sure the quarterly statement will shake things up, microtransactions won’t save the day. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/81 "2021-12-04T08:47:55Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Get off the high horse, Shipwreck. Other people’s opinions about the game are as valid as yours, and it certainly doesn’t help “community spirit” to start tar-and-feathering everyone who has a valid criticism with your ad-hominem witchhunt. It’s not witch hunt. The only problem is that CCP showed a care about people’s opinion ONCE : it was when they stopped BO. And now your pathtetic lots are lobbying in Eve to get exactly what your headmaster ordered you to lobby for. I tell you : CCP should ban every body that - insult CCP rattati without a solid argument - request a strike without a solid argument Because repeating “rattati is bad” IS ad hominem. So yes, I completely agree with @Shipwreck_Jones that you are a toxic bunch of cunts, without any opinion, any constructive criticism. Just a vocal minority, who does not care about the game, about the newbro, but claim they do in order to advance an hidden agenda. You have no opinion. You don’t even care about having an opinion. All you care about, is having an echo chamber. ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945/82 "2021-12-04T08:52:38Z")
“I tell you : CCP should ban every body that” > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > - insult CCP rattati without a solid argument > - request a strike without a solid argument Would there be anyone left to play the game? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bitter-vets-versus-better-vets/339945.md?page=5)