# Bittervets vs carebears: Wardec rebalance edition **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 5, 2018, 8:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363 "2018-11-05T08:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mevatla_vekraspek/32/377519_2.png) [@Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mevatla_Vekraspek)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/182 "2018-11-30T19:27:07Z")
no argument ---
**Author:** ![matthus\_loch](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/matthus_loch/32/106146_2.png) [@matthus\_loch](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/matthus_loch)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/183 "2018-11-30T19:31:14Z")
Removing wardecs is a good thing for eve. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/184 "2018-11-30T19:32:16Z")
it’s not possible. Without wardecs, people can keep their structure indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![matthus\_loch](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/matthus_loch/32/106146_2.png) [@matthus\_loch](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/matthus_loch)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/185 "2018-11-30T19:33:37Z")
Good that works for me ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/186 "2018-11-30T19:34:16Z")
> [@Dragos\_Highwind](#): > > not fun. Sheep will stay weak with the flock Wolves will always eat the sheep, regardless of what the latter has to say… You are sheep, you will stay sheep for as long as you’re being catered for. And you won’t prosper while we’re already richer than most 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/187 "2018-11-30T19:36:01Z")
There is no sheep nor wolf in that game, only people and their alts. Go back to kitty online, where there are wolves and sheeps. And stop insulting people. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/188 "2018-11-30T19:37:00Z")
I see you’re one of the sheep A sheep who can’t explain the _very strange reason_ why people specialized 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/189 "2018-11-30T19:37:09Z")
> [@Mevatla\_Vekraspek](#): > > Delicious. Eyes, lungs, pancreas… so many snacks, so little time. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > When people will have to pay as much as their target. Isk “tanking” is a terrible idea, it doesn’t work in the real world and it certainly won’t work here. No matter how expensive something is, it can always be destroyed with something cheaper. > You play in a game, where you are protected by concord which represents the law. No, Concord ARE NOT there for YOUR protection, they are there to ensure the stability of the Empires and to provide retribution for unsanctioned aggression between capsuleers. > Yet they can destroy your assets with a fraction of the cost of their ship, and paying a fraction of the time it required you to have them, while you can’t do anything to them. Why can’t you do anything? Or is it more of a case you won’t do anything? > Nobody wants to play a game where he has no other possibility than being the prey. That’s the thing, even as a PvE player, you don’t have to be prey. The possibility and the knowledge are there, if only you would grab them. > Still the mecanisms (of wardec or ganking) in HS. > It’s not that ganking should be removed from the game. IT’s that the ability to gank should require as much efforts and be disrupted by the ganked as the ganked activity requires and can. There’s a whole logistics and planning chain that go into ganking, not to count man hours. Believe me gankers put far more effort into their playstyle than meets the eye, and certainly more than all but a small percentage of their prey. It looks effortless because of the amount of effort put into it. > ATM you can’t do anything because alts. I have a hauling alt, out of corp, very specialised for agility, tank and speed and I don’t do anything stupid with her. Are you somehow excluded from doing the same? > If we could prevent ships/materials from being used eg by HS gankers, Feel free not to sell stuff on the open market but use contracts to sell stuff to those that you consider ethical. > or if the gankers would required to defend a structure in order to be able to gank, Get out. > basically if the ganked had a possibility to retaliate, then the game would not looks as much abused from a mecanisms point of view, then people may consider it is ok to adapt. Have you considered shooting them in the face, they are after all freely engagable for the most part? > Now you can replace all the “gankers” by “wardeccers” because it is exactly the same : they abuse the mecanisms, use alts to get informations and logistics, in order to only have benefit and avoid the issues that should come along. Being smarter about how they use the mechanics isn’t abuse until CCP says that it’s abuse. You’re not the smartest person in Eve, get over it. > And that’s why people rather leave than play in that game : the mecanisms are abused by people whose interest in the game is to abuse other people. Then the game does not become a game anymore, just a burden. I think you misunderstand the game; all of the things that you dislike about it, are part of the design brief. > Why do gankers use catalysts ? because it’s the best damage/cost given the restriction of players. There’s far more to it than that, but in essence given the current meta you’re not wrong > Because the game allows you to do so. By design, and at a cost. > Ganking is vital for eve online, but optimizing your gameplay in order to not suffer any consequence from the punishment the game ensures is deadly. If you see this happening report it to CCP, evading the consequences that the game provides for ganking is an exploit. Accepting and planning for the consequences is smart gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/190 "2018-11-30T19:37:59Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Isk “tanking” is a terrible idea, _Laughs in 50b freighter killmails_ ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/191 "2018-11-30T19:58:30Z")
> [@Dom\_Arkaral](#): > > Laughs in 50b freighter killmails _Laughs in capital ship component sales_ ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/192 "2018-11-30T20:01:09Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > it doesn’t work in the real world There is no isk in reals world. However there is the notion that a society requires that someone who harms another ones needs to pay in order to undo the harm. That’s what law is, and that’s what state are to provide, and it even has a name : “security”. So that’s what people expect when going in a video game that gives a “highs security” area, even though being a video game it would have to be simplified. That’s what people pay car insurance for. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > No, Concord are not there for YOUR protection, they are there to ensure the stability of the Empires There is not “empire stability” but in the lore. In effect, Concord is presented as the one that brings the “security” into “High security” area. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Why can’t you do anything? Because the game allows it, doh ! WTF is that question ? Once you are ganked, you can’t do anything against the ganker. good luck hunting him if he connect once every week end. This kill right is a joke. My bad, it’s a scam. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > The possibility and the knowledge are there, if only you would grab them. And that’s the issue. The game is designed in a way that you must know all the required things to not become a prey, otherwise you will fall in a trap. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Believe me gankers put far more effort into their playstyle than meets the eye I did not say the opposite. yet you can’t compare the investment of someone who loses 50B to the investment of someone who loses 20 catalysts and has nothing more to pay. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Feel free not to sell stuff on the open market but use contracts to sell stuff to those that you consider ethical. That would not change a thing. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Get out. Nope. Seriously, nope. That’s a very stupid yet very interesting idea. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > they are after all freely engagable for the most part? You can’t shoot them. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Being smarter about how they use the mechanics isn’t abuse until CCP says that it’s abuse. You’re not the smartest person in Eve, get over it. It’s an abuse from a player’s perspective. And being risk-adverse has nothing to do with being smart. You have your definitions wrongs. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Accepting and planning for the consequences is smart gameplay. nope ? I means, it’s as smart as using AM or void when in close range ? and “accepting and planning for the consequences” implies to not suffer from them, just as you don’t suffer when you pay a bill you already planned while you suffer when you are robbed. ---
**Author:** ![Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mevatla_vekraspek/32/377519_2.png) [@Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mevatla_Vekraspek)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/193 "2018-11-30T20:01:19Z")
Do you think that some haulers are contracted to transport the loot of their ganked freighters? ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/194 "2018-11-30T20:04:22Z")
That would be delicious irony. Even more delicious when served with a side dish of them getting ganked, again, with the contracted loot from their previous gank in the hold. ---
**Author:** ![Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mevatla_vekraspek/32/377519_2.png) [@Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mevatla_Vekraspek)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/195 "2018-11-30T20:04:40Z")
That’s mean. 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/196 "2018-11-30T20:05:54Z")
Nah. That’s human stupidity, some people never learn from their mistakes; they just blame others for them. ---
**Author:** ![Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mevatla_vekraspek/32/377519_2.png) [@Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mevatla_Vekraspek)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/197 "2018-11-30T20:07:18Z")
No, i think they just love getting spanked. At least some do. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/198 "2018-11-30T20:07:59Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > My bad, it’s a scam. TIL getting paid for having someone else avenge you is a scam This is you in a nutshell (you literally make no sense) ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/199 "2018-11-30T20:31:18Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > There is no isk in reals world. The word isk can be substituted for the currency of your choice, £$€ “tanking” doesn’t work. If you want to be really pendantic Iceland would like a word, ISK is their currency. > However there is the notion that a society requires that someone who harms another ones needs to pay in order to undo the harm. That’s what law is, and that’s what state are to provide, and it even has a name : “security”. So that’s what people expect when going in a video game that gives a “highs security” area, even though being a video game it would have to be simplified. > That’s what people pay car insurance for. High security != complete security; the “crime rate” is far lower in hisec than you’d find in any major city, 99+% of people go about their business safely in highsec, the ones that don’t are just very loud about it. > There is not “empire stability” but in the lore. In effect, Concord is presented as the one that brings the “security” into “High security” area. Concord are a deterrent to ganking, a very effective one when you consider that only a very small percentage of players partake in the playstyle. > Once you are ganked, you can’t do anything against the ganker The gank starts way before the antimatter starts flying, the best thing to do against gankers is not to be a target; this means making smart gameplay choices and making risk assessments. > The game is designed in a way that you must know all the required things to not become a prey, otherwise you will fall in a trap. Bovine excrement, spend 3 hours with a gank fleet; watch, listen, ask and learn. You just learnt how not to get ganked by seeing the mechanics in action and asking questions of those who know them inside out. That same knowledge and those same mechanics can be leveraged in your favour, and against other predatory playstyles too. What you do with them is your choice. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > I did not say the opposite. yet you can’t compare the investment of someone who loses 50B to the investment of someone who loses 20 catalysts and has nothing more to pay. Not all investment is fiscal, nor is it apparent. They’ve invested in a logistics chain, personnel, intelligence networks, social networks, mastery of the mechanics involved etc etc. Their entire organisation is an investment, so is their time and opportunity cost. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You can’t shoot them. If they have a criminal flag, you can shoot them; if their sec status makes them a criminal, which is often the case, you can shoot them; in fact anybody can, and Concord won’t lay a finger on you for doing so. > It’s an abuse from a player’s perspective. And being risk-adverse has nothing to do with being smart. You have your definitions wrongs. Managing risk in order to mitigate the effect of any consequences is not the same thing as being risk averse. One is planning ahead, the other just doesn’t take the risk at all. > nope ? I means, it’s as smart as using AM or void when in close range ? > and “accepting and planning for the consequences” implies to not suffer from them, just as you don’t suffer when you pay a bill you already planned while you suffer when you are robbed. It implies nothing of the sort, you always suffer the consequences. If you accept that the consequences are always going to happen and plan for them you can lessen the impact of them. Planning ahead is always smart gameplay. Having a decent plan is an entirely different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/200 "2018-11-30T20:41:11Z")
Inb4 another weak comeback Also woo post 200 ---
**Author:** ![Dragos\_Highwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragos_highwind/32/170517_2.png) [@Dragos\_Highwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dragos_Highwind)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/201 "2018-11-30T20:41:14Z")
> [@Dom\_Arkaral](#): > > Sheep will stay weak with the flock > Wolves will always eat the sheep, regardless of what the latter has to say… > > You are sheep, you will stay sheep for as long as you’re being catered for. And you won’t prosper while we’re already richer than most 😃 The irony here is there are a limited number of sheep and if wolves don’t allow sheep to gain a foothold, the wolves will starve. A 15 year old game in an age of overpopulation of video games needs every sub it can get it’s hands on. If you don’t make the game fun for those you are dis-proportionally attacking, you may find yourself without a game to hunt in one day. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363.md?page=11)