# Bittervets vs carebears: Wardec rebalance edition **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 5, 2018, 8:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363 "2018-11-05T08:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/202 "2018-11-30T20:42:17Z")
don’t try to show logic to dom, his brain can’t handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/203 "2018-11-30T20:45:31Z")
The number of wolves around is but a fraction of that of sheep This pretty much defeats your whole argument 😉 > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > his brain can’t handle it. So much for > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > stop insulting people. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/204 "2018-11-30T20:48:52Z")
> [@Dragos\_Highwind](#): > > The irony here is there are a limited number of sheep and if wolves don’t allow sheep to gain a foothold, the wolves will starve The prey massively outnumber the predators in hisec, and not all prey are defenceless; some of us metaphorically sharpen our claws and teeth, and generally get jiggy with it. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/205 "2018-11-30T20:53:43Z")
I call your type _dogs_ Some protect the sheep, some don’t care. But most will go after the wolf if provoked ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/206 "2018-11-30T20:56:37Z")
I prefer scareybear or don’tcarebear ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/5/1/51982c253e9442241638896976d19c9cac4723b7.png) ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/207 "2018-11-30T21:14:49Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > If you want to be really pendantic Iceland would like a word, ISK is their currency. And just because they have the same name does not make it the same thing. but yeah, currency would be more appropriate. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > 99+% of people go about their business safely in highsec You mean the 99% of accounts that are alts and only log in once every month to extract SPs ? Anyhow this is unrelated.I tell you what security implies in terms of mecanisms, and why people who don’t know Eve find it stupid the moment they discover the truth. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Concord are a deterrent to ganking, a very effective one when you consider that only a very small percentage of players partake in the playstyle. They are so efficient that you can bribe them for 50 M. come on … Stop your jokes. Even a nade is more expensive than to invalidate concord. And yet your argument is not valid. Just because there is concord in HS AND there is a few percentage of players that participate in ganks, does not mean that this is because of concord. Especially since concord does NOT prevent the ganks. concord is just an additional cost to gank. You pay it with a target mind, for a week ; or by the act. And… that’s all. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > The gank starts way before the antimatter starts flying It starts the moment the ganker starts to want to gank, and it stops the moment the ganker is concordoken. Nothing to do with the “smart gameplay” of the victim. you can play a tanked proc in a 1.0 system and still be ganked by a flock of 1000 noobships. “You were not smart enough.” > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Bovine excrement, spend 3 hours with a gank fleet; watch, listen, ask and learn. So what you are saying is, that in order to understand he mechanism a new player has to face, he must spend 3H listening to random dudes in the game ? That’s … interesting point of view. You may still have something to learn from the dictionary, page “fun”. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > If they have a criminal flag, you can shoot them; nope. Just, no. That’s just NOT TRUE at all. Unless you magically can shoot people in a station or when tethered. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > One is planning ahead, the other just doesn’t take the risk at all. When you play the game in order to have already replaced whatever can happen to you, you are risk adverse. Again it’s not about the gankers, it’s about the mechanisms of the game which allow that. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/208 "2018-11-30T21:24:35Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It starts the moment the ganker starts to want to gank Nope It starts the second a person wants to move big amounts of isk either in a hauler, a pod or a combat ship even… > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > nope. Just, no. Very much yes > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > When you play the game in order to have already replaced whatever can happen to you, you are risk adverse. This is the exact opposite of risk averse A risk averse player plans on never losing their ship. Normal players don’t care if they die… > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Again it’s not about the gankers, It is, you confirm this with the next statement you made > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > it’s about the mechanisms of the game which allow that. “[…]that.” Being ganking Checkmate ---
**Author:** ![Sepheir\_Sepheron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sepheir_sepheron/32/279597_2.png) [@Sepheir\_Sepheron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sepheir_Sepheron)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/209 "2018-11-30T21:28:52Z")
I think a lot of people will resort to suicide ganking to replace their current hs stomps. That or they’ll have to go to low to get satisfaction, everyone’s a war target there 🙂 Kinda glad for this change. I hope low gets more popular. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/210 "2018-11-30T21:41:55Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > When you play the game in order to have already replaced whatever can happen to you, you are risk adverse. This is just plain stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/211 "2018-11-30T21:43:43Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > They are so efficient that you can bribe them for 50 M They’re efficient in that only a very small number of hisec players choose ganking as a playstyle, because it incurs inescapable consequences and extra cost. I doubt gankers rate a single digit percentage of hisec players. Wardecs are not ganking, and ganking is not wardeccing. Are you getting the two confused? It certainly seems like it. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/212 "2018-11-30T22:02:55Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > They’re efficient in that only a very small number of hisec players choose ganking as a playstyle, because it incurs inescapable consequences and extra cost. Yet there is no established relation in the efficiency of concord and the number of gankers, especially since concord efficiency is close to 0. Concord is presented as the “cops” of the game. The efficiency of cops is not about how many people are subject to crimes (that’s the efficiency of politics) ; it’s how many people committed a crime and got caught. But being caught for a crime is not being slapped on the hand IRL, so the efficiency of CONCORD is very small. This seems absurd for people who realize there actually is no force to ensure security in “high security” area, especially when they come from a MMO where the beginning is safe from PK. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Wardecs are not ganking, and ganking is not wardeccing. Are you getting the two confused? They both are perceived as exceptions to the game rules that say “you can’t shoot another player in HS”. So they are perceived the same from a mechanism idea. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/213 "2018-11-30T22:07:25Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > the game mechanism that say “you can’t shoot another player in HS” Ahh the root of all misunderstandings in Eve. There is no such game mechanism or rule that says you can’t shoot another player in hisec, there never has been; before you start with the safety, that’s not there to stop you shooting other players, it’s to stop you doing it by mistake. The exact opposite is in fact true, you can always shoot another player in highsec, if you’re prepared to pay the price. ---
**Author:** ![Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/avaelica_kuershin/32/478139_2.png) [@Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Avaelica_Kuershin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/214 "2018-11-30T22:08:09Z")
> [@Dragos\_Highwind](#): > > The irony here is there are a limited number of sheep and if wolves don’t allow sheep to gain a foothold, the wolves will starve. The prey are so numerous it has become necessary to cull them. Fortunately there are many careless bears in T2 ships and freighters to satisfy our appetite. I expect no difference with the upcoming changes. It will be interesting to see if there are bait structures similar to the way some ships are bait. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/215 "2018-11-30T22:08:53Z")
> [@Avaelica\_Kuershin](#): > > It will be interesting to see if there are bait structures similar to the way some ships are bait. Citadel scale Dickstars and Deathstars, me likely. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/216 "2018-11-30T22:09:03Z")
and that’s why I was talking about the notion of security and losing a 1000 noobships to kill a procurer in HS. BTW I reworded my previous paragprah, I had made a lot of mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Dragos\_Highwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragos_highwind/32/170517_2.png) [@Dragos\_Highwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dragos_Highwind)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/217 "2018-11-30T22:11:51Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > They’re efficient in that only a very small number of hisec players choose ganking as a playstyle, because it incurs inescapable consequences and extra cost. I doubt gankers rate a single digit percentage of hisec players. > > Wardecs are not ganking, and ganking is not wardeccing. Are you getting the two confused? > > It certainly seems like it. Actually, it is the same thing in many instances. "[Ganking](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ganking) It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters [gang up on](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gang%20up%20on) one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one [high level](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=high%20level)player does the same action to a [player way](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=player%20way) below his or her own level." Just for an example, we’ll take a recent victory from our resident wolf Dom. > **[Azbel | RUSTRADECORP RTC | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68253352/)** > > (RUSTRADECORP RTC) lost their Azbel in Atoosh (Tash-Murkon). Final Blow by Julian Khardula (Khardula Ventures) flying in a Purifier. Total Value: 5,440,929,445.03 ISK 14 players fro ma 190 player alliance vs a 7 person corp. Pretty sure this is the definition of a Gank. Note: that was a 50 million wardeck for a 1.2b payday, that band of people also proceeded to clear out most/all of that sector. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/218 "2018-11-30T22:11:55Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > I had made a lot of mistakes. Yeah you did, the foremost is assuming that there are rules in place to stop you shooting people in hisec. There are not, there are merely consequences and costs. > [@Dragos\_Highwind](#): > > Actually, it is the same thing in many instances. As a generalisation you’re correct, but here in Eve ganking generally has a very specific meaning, which is the one that most of us use when discussing Eve related topics. Here ganking is the act of killing something expensive before Concord roll up and kill you, normally for profit, sometimes for shiggles. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/219 "2018-11-30T22:57:32Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Yeah you did, the foremost is assuming that there are rules in place to stop you shooting people in hisec. There are not, there are merely consequences and costs. here is your mistake : you assume I assume this. The fact is that security has a meaning IRL, that is not effectively present in Eve in so-called “high security systems” (because again it involves retribution of the gankee and prevention). The fact is that concord is the mechanism supposed to enforce the “high security”. This means that concord is not efficient. Now again I have no opinion about this specific topic, especially since I can’t find a solution that keeps together both the need for destruction and the need for justice one expects to get when playing a video game. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > in Eve ganking generally has a very specific meaning, Only for people who live in HS. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/220 "2018-11-30T23:29:27Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > here is your mistake : you assume I assume this. I assume nothing. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > the game rules that say “you can’t shoot another player in HS”. Your words, not mine. > The fact is that security has a meaning IRL. This isn’t RL, this is a game with a very different ruleset than that of real life. ---
**Author:** ![Kerono\_Thalmor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kerono_thalmor/32/505504_2.png) [@Kerono\_Thalmor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kerono_Thalmor)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363/221 "2018-12-01T03:24:14Z")
I think CCP knows exactly what they’re doing here. I say go for it. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bittervets-vs-carebears-wardec-rebalance-edition/118363.md?page=12)