# \[BosAc\] Proclamation of Avalon **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 1, 2020, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001 "2020-12-01T05:28:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/22 "2020-12-01T21:02:54Z")
Might I point you, specifically, to the part of them claiming, very specifically, the districts that were given to them(warclones), by the Thukker Tribe, and not the ‘whole of Skarkon II and related territory’. While the Thukker has not contradicted Khumatar Efrit, they also have no supported him, at least openly. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/23 "2020-12-01T21:03:01Z")
Then it’s only relevant in his discussions with other warclone organizations, and he shouldn’t be trying to use it to justify their claims to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/24 "2020-12-01T21:04:12Z")
In which case the aforementioned Right of Gift is sufficient, it is however necessary to establish the chain of custody as to why said districts are under our control specifically as opposed to another Warclone entity’s or sitting abandoned as they largely were prior to our reactivation of the districts. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/25 "2020-12-01T21:05:15Z")
> [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](#): > > While the Thukker has not contradicted Khumatar Efrit, they also have no supported him, at least openly. So if I don’t say ‘obey the law’ I can be taken as endorsing murder, kidnapping, slaving, and all other manner of crime? That’s a ridiculous thing to say. The Thukker don’t _need_ to ‘openly’ support the legal governor of the system. Supporting the legal government is the default position, unless you want to be considered in open revolt. > [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](#): > > In which case the aforementioned Right of Gift is sufficient It is not. Not once Efrit declared them enemies of the Republic. At that point, any territory claimed by them within the Republic was clearly considered occupied by a hostile force. If the warclones wanted those claims—which rest entirely under the aegis of Tribal law—to be retained, then it might have been wise to _not_ undertake, according to Galm’s own words, _multiple assasination attempts_ on the Khumatar. ---
**Author:** ![Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galm_eskola-fae/32/511580_2.png) [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galm_Eskola-Fae)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/26 "2020-12-01T21:13:22Z")
I don’t find this particular train of conversation particularly compelling nor interesting, and the hyperbole does little to make me think you’re any more willing to assess what we’re saying here. You seem to have already made up your mind on the matter. If my associates want to continue sparring with you over this that’s their prerogative but personally I don’t see anything rewarding in continuing. Thankfully this is just a press release reviewing actions and legal claim we have long upheld and not meant to be any form of legal arbitration. We are doing little new than putting a name on territory we already rightfully occupied. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/27 "2020-12-01T21:14:20Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > It is not. Not once Efrit declared them enemies of the Republic. At that point, any territory claimed by them within the Republic was clearly considered occupied by a hostile force. I will remind you that the gift was given “free of any strings," and even during the time before the Warlord Uprising many districts were held and legally recognized as held by entities that were enemies of the Republic, including Templar organizations. Though admittedly it would be a matter for courts to decide, much like many of the allegations against Kril Efrit at the time, and much of our hope for RJD to perform their own audit was lost when the invasion began. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/28 "2020-12-01T21:15:17Z")
> [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](#): > > I will remind you that the gift was given “free of any strings," Irrelevant. The territory was still on Republic worlds, in Republic systems. That shouldn’t even be hard to understand: If a hostile foreign occupying force makes war on the sovereign power whose territory they occupy, they shouldn’t go expecting that power to say ‘oh, well, we wouldn’t want to infringe on your property rights’. They should expect to get _shot_. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/29 "2020-12-01T21:17:59Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Irrelevant. The territory was still on Republic worlds, in Republic systems. > > That shouldn’t even be hard to understand: If a hostile foreign occupying force makes war on the sovereign power whose territory they occupy, they shouldn’t go expecting that power to say ‘oh, well, we wouldn’t want to infringe on your property rights’. > > They should expect to get _shot_ . And yet they were not, precisely as I said ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/30 "2020-12-01T21:19:51Z")
Were not _what_? Not territories on Republic worlds? Not in Republic systems? Or are you claiming that foreign warclones making multiple assassination attempts from Thukker worlds do not constitute a hostile foreign occupying force? ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/31 "2020-12-01T21:22:06Z")
I am saying that Templar Organizations directly involved with The Crusade held onto some of the same territories, involved in direct military action against The Republic, responsible for the capture and fall of worlds multiple times, faced none of this same ire 5-7 years ago. Ones that were quite literally a foreign occupying force as opposed to being one by statement ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/32 "2020-12-01T21:27:51Z")
The Templars involved with the Crusade have not faced this level of mild irritation, no. That is very correct. There is an entirely different level of undying hatred that they enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/33 "2020-12-01T21:38:02Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The Templars involved with the Crusade have not faced this level of mild irritation, no. That is very correct. There is an entirely different level of undying hatred that they enjoy. Ah, well then I’m sure you have your own statements from when they held districts within Molden Heath that can be brought up from the time. And of course you should be able to find statements from Khumatars of the time to a similar effect. And of course you can cite instances of the actions taken by the Khumatars, system authorities, and the RSS of course would have deployed. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/35 "2020-12-01T22:43:12Z")
I am requesting proof of the precedence you have stated ought to exist with regards to the issues with the claim given the previous legitimacy of claims under similar or arguably worse circumstances by your own admission, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/36 "2020-12-01T22:47:23Z")
> [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](#): > > given the previous legitimacy of claims under similar or arguably worse circumstances Then first you’ll have to show me where the 24IC ever claimed they _shouldn’t_ be shot at. Once you do _that_, we can start worrying about whether extremely specific statements about self-evident conditions can be taken as understood from years of public statements about the military invasions of the Amarr Empire _in general_, or whether overly-specific statements need to be produced from no-longer supported galnet resources. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/37 "2020-12-01T22:54:08Z")
I am going to assume for the moment that additional clarification is needed, so I will restate the points that need clarified to ensure that what is being asked about and what is at issue is more readily available. Amarr Templar Organizations and Members of the 24th Imperial Crusade held Territory within Molden Heath in the form of Planetary Districts granted to warclones as a whole by the Thukkers and repeatedly exchanged between the same. During this time, there were no Republic Force interventions onto their or any other districts. Claims were in fact upheld under tribal law your statement was made that > It is not. Not once Efrit declared them enemies of the Republic. At that point, any territory claimed by them within the Republic was clearly considered occupied by a hostile force. As the Thukker Tribe facilitated the system for transferring of districts between Warclones and those of the systems used to track ownership thereof, and therefore the legitimacy of the same. As previous claims were administered and protected under Tribal Law, why should these be any different. ---
**Author:** ![Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galm_eskola-fae/32/511580_2.png) [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galm_Eskola-Fae)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/38 "2020-12-01T22:55:36Z")
I hate to break it to you but you aren’t nearly as good at arguing as you think you are, _arvumaa_. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/39 "2020-12-01T23:00:41Z")
> [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](#): > > Amarr Templar Organizations and Members of the 24th Imperial Crusade held Territory within Molden Heath in the form of Planetary Districts granted to warclones as a whole by the Thukkers and repeatedly exchanged between the same. And? Again, as has been pointed out, those grants were the Thukkers’ to offer. At the time, there were no specific determinations made against them, and no general amnesty offered. If warclone organizations with criminal standings in the Republic were present, they sure as hell weren’t out there _advertising_ it, nor publicly agitating against the lawful government of the system. > [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](#): > > As previous claims were administered and protected under Tribal Law, why should these be any different. You mean why should there be a difference between districts taken up by warclones who _didn’t_ publicly take up arms against the Khumatar, and those who have admitted to multiple assassination attempts? Gosh, I dunno. > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > I hate to break it to you but you aren’t nearly as good at arguing as you think you are, _arvumaa_. Yeah, I might consider that if it wasn’t coming from someone who’s managed to argue himself into a ‘FFS, Galm, **shut the hell up** ’ from his own allies time after time. ---
**Author:** ![Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/attn_thaddeus_reynolds/32/377671_2.png) [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Attn_Thaddeus_Reynolds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/40 "2020-12-01T23:34:15Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You mean why should there be a difference between districts taken up by warclones who _didn’t_ publicly take up arms against the Khumatar, and those who have admitted to multiple assassination attempts? > > Gosh, I dunno. I mean what is the difference between the Elite shock infantry and special forces units of a foreign power holding territory, who took up arms against The Republic and the People of The Repbulic An organization that provided humanitarian support and construction efforts. Who fought smugglers and slavers on the world. Who took up arms to oppose Private Military Contractors who were forcibly removing people from their lands and moving them to undisclosed locations without warrant or remit to do so. Who opposed the selling of those same lands to a Foreign Power. Who opposed and sought to capture the individual issuing said orders when it further came to light they lacked legal authority to perform the previous actions. Who protected and formed shields for the local populace once that same individual began an oppressive crackdown on protests against this affront to them. Who ceased military operations against the PMCs once the individual was appointed to the position of Khumatar after all of that had occurred, and instead pursued things through the RJD instead. Who still went in to areas to rescue the very PMCs and now Republic Soldiers who would fire upon them from Chemical Weapons attacks. Who offered to work as a shield against invaders. Yes…I would very much like to know why we are being treated differently and as less legitimate To your former point > they sure as hell weren’t out there _advertising_ it Plenty of them were quite open about it at the time > nor publicly agitating against the lawful government of the system. The actions and individuals opposed with military force were not the lawful government of the system at the time of the military force ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/41 "2020-12-02T00:34:26Z")
> [@Attn\_Thaddeus\_Reynolds](#): > > what is the difference It was the Thukkers’ choice to make. They gave you all a place to settle, and that was fine. Where it _stopped_ being fine was when the Tribal Council sent a legally-appointed agent in to take charge of a system in crisis, and you guys _did not stand down as ordered_. Yes, there was previously-established bad blood between Bosena Accords and Kril Efrit. May I remind you, I supported [Bosena’s request for an RSS inquest](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rss-inquest-report-kril-efrit-must-go/250018). I am not, in any way, a fan of Kril Efrit, or of the current power structure that he represents. I believe they represent a dangerously violent faction who came to power in a murderous coup with a whole lot of purely fabricated ‘evidence’ that was only ever reviewed by their own people. That said, once he was placed in charge of the situation in Skarkon, he did legitimately possess the authority to tell Bosena to stand the hell down and stop interfering. Whatever grievances Bosena may have had against him, however valid or righteous, _did not alter that_. Skarkon was, at the time, undisputedly a Republic system, and he was the individual placed in charge of resolving the matter by the Republic. You come into a lawless place, invited by the locals, and that’s fine. You get into a scrap with some of the local criminal element, and you try to make the place better and safer for civilians. That’s fine, too. Hell, that’s commendable. Then a new lawman gets sent in. Don’t matter if he’s someone you got history with, he’s still the law. And when he tells you to stop shooting people, you have to stop shooting people. He tells you to get the hell out of town, you _get the hell out of town_. Doesn’t matter if he’s biased. Doesn’t matter if he’s running you off because he doesn’t like you. You can sue. You can take that up with the courts. You refuse to leave? You keep on shooting people? Now _you’re_ a problem. And you’re in the wrong. You try to murder him, you’re _definitely_ a problem, and you’ve pretty much thrown away any chance of getting a court to say ‘no, he’s gotta let you back into town’. You have gone and shot yourself right straight in the _dick_ as far as justifications and legitimacy are concerned. But you didn’t stop there. No, see, instead, when a whole freakin’ invading army comes in and occupies the place, what happens? As far as I’m aware, you guys fought pretty hard to protect the place during the initial invasion. You could’ve kept that up. You could have said ‘it doesn’t matter if Efrit’s gonna be an ass to us, we’re going to keep fighting for the people of Skarkon II’. But y’didn’t, did you? Yeah, yeah, I’m aware that Efrit was a paranoid ass who declared your evacuation efforts ‘slaving’. And yeah, that sucks for you. In that situation, you could have just said ‘ok, then, we’ll put our ships at _your_ disposal. You call the shots here, boss, we just want to help protect these people’. Not a ‘ceasefire’, but a full-on ‘dude, we surrender, just let us help the population’. Sure, it might have stung the pride a little, and maybe he would’ve refused even _that_… but then you’d have a legit case that you’d made every good-faith effort to honor the invitation that brought you there in the first place. Didn’t do that, either, though. Instead, Bosena made a big, showy declaration about how they wouldn’t attack… _the Triglavians_. And it didn’t help, cuz the Trigs don’t care! They’re still gonna shoot your warclone asses! Worse, they’re still running roughshod over the civilian populace… or what’s left of it. Civilians getting slaughtered in droves while Bosena Accord postures and makes grand declarations of ‘SEE!!! We’re _totally_ legit here! We really are! We mean it!’ You label yourselves invaders. You’ve thrown in with other invaders. And you still try to put forth a claim under the original invitation that was clearly intended to find a way to _reduce_ the conflict in Skarkon. And you want to know why you’re seen as less legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001/42 "2020-12-02T02:22:00Z")
Now, I’m not the most learned person by far, but I keep my eyes and ears open. Coming at this with an open mind, this is an extension of their ongoing fight with the Triglavians, a deeper foothold. The Collective is gonna have to put even more effort into stalemating the Avalon contingent, effort that would have gone to solidifying their hold elsewhere, likely by searching out what civilians remain. And if the Trig decide to get complacent there, either they’ll change their minds quickly or Avalon will be gaining more ground, figuratively if not literally speaking. At least, that’s how I see it. And speaking from some experience in rearguard action, I’d say it’s worth giving them some benefit of the doubt and work with them. I also had some thoughts on all this talk of legitimacy but I feel that issue is largely irrelevant in the face of the circumstances. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bosac-proclamation-of-avalon/283001.md?page=3)