# Bringing Back Manufacturing Slots Would Have A Positive Impact **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499 "2022-06-10T02:27:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/63 "2022-06-13T00:14:07Z")
It’s not really a whine. I benefit from the fact that everyone is concentrated around Jita. It’s just bad for the game. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 6:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/64 "2022-06-13T06:48:00Z")
The following also shouldn’t need to be re-re-rexplained but you and Tom both miss the point of my previous posts. Demand in New Eden is observed like a hawk by all sorts of market players. Supply of new items doesn’t suddenly induce demand. _Existing_ people in Heimatar, parts of Metropolis and Derelik, and Molden Heath would rather take their sweet time travelling to Jita to fulfill their demand. That’s all a player have to address. A player starting their own “Buy Locally” media/propaganda campaign can take all the existing people that live in the area and convert that demand to Rens. Then the arbitragers would come, followed by the industrialists as they adjust to meet that demand. The media campaign can argue for: 1) less time spent hauling, and 2) more economic opportunities for the locals (local demand of other items will also shift), and 3) avoiding today’s Nash Equilibrium outcome which is sub-optimal for everyone. It is rational in every sense except the raw “immediate ISK wallet” argument, which means not everyone would be converted. Because some people are just so blinded by ISK they’d rather cut off their own nose to spite their face. Which is what I am making fun of. But it is a real, true player-run effort to make regional change. And it is no more illogical than selling mining permits. There are analogous real life campaigns for this kind of ■■■■ too, like “buy locally” and “save main street” and “don’t shop at WalMart”, so it’s not exactly foreign rocket science. Yes, there’s stuff CCP can do. That’s true of any issue. No, I don’t believe manufacturing slots will fix it. As someone who learned the game when these slots existed, manufacturing slots makes the future just like today, except suppliers will just make extra jumps to and from Jita. _Because demand is observed like a hawk_. Suppliers go to where demonstrable demand is in Eve. So maybe ganking increases in that future, but there’d just be more ships making longer trips to and from Jita. None of them will decide “well maybe I should stop at this halfway house of a knockoff trade hub instead and hope demand follows my items”. There’s more than enough stories in this very thread about unfulfilled sell orders. The player-run media campaign addresses the root issue at hand: _player demand_ and relies on personal charisma, makes a great game story, and doesn’t rely on CCP’s slow-ass whimsy. We get less whining and more players taking leadership roles. So yeah, collective and organized individual action can matter. It takes skilled leadership for it to be impactful. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 7:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/65 "2022-06-13T07:52:28Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > miss the point of my previous posts. Your point is wrong. People build in/next to Jita because they can, that increases supply there and lowers supply somewhere else. Because people build less elsewhere people who want to buy stuff have less options so they move to Jita because that is where the supply is, which then affects markets and activity in other areas affected the demand, which then again strengthens Jita’s position. It all ties into each other and amplifies each other. It’s basic fcking logic. An increase/ease of supply draws in demand, which then weakens demand elsewhere resulting in less supply elsewhere resulting in more people being drawn to Jita. Rinse repeat. The only way to counter this is to limit the amount that can be produced in/around a single location which will then slowly create a more healthy situation. CCP did the same in null to break up the super constellations where pretty much everyone from that alliance/coalition was in one area and the rest was empty. For good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Sklor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tom_sklor/32/323940_2.png) [@Tom\_Sklor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tom_Sklor)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/66 "2022-06-13T08:02:27Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The following also shouldn’t need to be re-re-rexplained but you and Tom both miss the point of my previous posts. Oh no, I don’t miss your point at all. The problem is that you fundamentally misunderstand how markets operate. You comically ignore the fact that consumers are only one element of demand. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/67 "2022-06-13T08:14:48Z")
TL;DR: _“An increase of supply draws demand”_ does not hold true for Eve markets due to relisting fees. Y’all say “yeah it does” and I say “no it doesn’t”. The End. > [@Tom\_Sklor](#): > > You comically ignore the fact that consumers are only one element of demand. I get both of your points: supply and demand “look at supply too hurr durr”. I disagree with you two because of what everyone else has also been saying. Aiko and others have explained how the sell order fees are a total turnoff when demand is not there, but supply is. That barrier of re-listing fees and broker fees is why no one today issues a wonderful selection of all the items you could ever want supply-side in any other trade hubs. That is ISK wasted as the sell orders expire _due to a lack of demand_. No supplier is going to burn ISK that way. I get there are both demand and supply side issues, but as someone who has participated in small scale independent industry, and nullsec industry, and seen folks use CRUST/ESI to find market opportunities (and coded up that ■■■■ myself) _as a supplier at various scales_, the problem is fundamentally on the demand side. People work _hard_ to make sure their sell orders… well, sell! Because of these fees! What everyone else is saying! That’s why _demand is watched like a hawk_. If suppliers had a better market volume guarantee at local trade hubs – 90d buy orders – they would recognize the corresponding demand and shift supplies accordingly. That’s why individual market-maker accounts were a thing at each of the trade hubs (but this is a separate digression). And this demand mentality… _could_ be addressed with a mentality shift of the player base. Ta da! Again, if you force people to build outside of Jita, with today’s mentality, you’re just going to get people freighting ■■■■ out of Jita, building, and freighting the supply back into Jita. Some people will quit instead of dealing with the hauling. No rational supplier is going to dump their on the local market and pray that their sell order doesn’t expire and that they face re-listing fees. I don’t know how to drill this point home any more, if y’all still don’t get it and want to play the “Io Koval is dumb and not looking at the supply side” card when that’s precisely what I’m explaining to you, then that’s on you and your reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/68 "2022-06-13T08:29:12Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > today’s mentality Exists because of today’s situation, change the situation to change the mentality. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > No rational supplier is going to dump their on the local market When people can’t build anymore without limits or competition, some will still try to sell in Jita but build elsewhere, yes. But SOME suppliers will choose to build (and therefore also sell) in another area like Dodixie or Rens. Once they do that people from/in that area won’t have to go to Jita any more but stick around where they want to be (instead of where they HAVE to be). More supply → more demand → more supply. Etc etc. It’s really not difficult unless you don’t WANT to understand, because it doesn’t suit you. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/69 "2022-06-13T08:31:23Z")
I added a TL;DR which summarizes our disagreement: > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > TL;DR: _“An increase of supply draws demand”_ does not hold true for Eve markets due to relisting fees. Y’all say “yeah it does” and I say “no it doesn’t”. The End. Someone supplying EMP Smartbomb IIs at a local market does not suddenly induce demand for them in that local market. I say this from experience. You can read any marketing/industry blog from the past 5 years of Eve entrepreneurs and “identifying the market” is always the first step. It is never “fling ■■■■ up on the sell orders and watch as people flock to you”. And: > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > It’s really not difficult unless you don’t WANT to understand, because it doesn’t suit you. Is really laughable! 😂 I don’t know how else to explain: > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > More supply → more demand → more supply. Is great in theory, but in practice in Eve it is _not_ how it works based on my lived experience, and clearly the experience of others in this thread. But don’t take my word for it, you should try to be a T2 independent industrialist in Rens! 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/70 "2022-06-13T08:43:27Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > But don’t take my word for it So how do you explain the current situation then, WHY did it happen and WHY did it start to happen in a specific point in history. Also: > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > you should try to be a T2 independent industrialist in Rens! In the current situation where I can much easier build around Jita, no. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/71 "2022-06-13T08:48:23Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > So how do you explain I was gone for nearly 10 years so I only have the stark before/after. To me the WHYs don’t really matter unless folks want to press an “undo” button a lot, which I don’t think is viable and is a fallacious dream to pursue. It’s more of a “where to go from here” kind of question. This post that was ignored seemed to sum it up well: > [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > A hell of a lot more happened to centralize players. Which is what people are telling you. It isn’t just about manufacturing. It’s also about: the introduction of filaments (letting entire roam fleets stage out of Jita instead of a corp HQ or secondary marker, especially useful for widely distributed corps); the constant migration of some of the highest value high-sec PvE, Incursions (removing any value in consistently staging at a specific non-Jita location); changes in mining (distribution of minerals across high-, low-, and null-sec took some major changes in the last two years, resulting in a lot of people not being able to locally source all their minerals anymore and increasing manufacturing costs, drying up smaller markets due to the margins being too small for profitability); and the current trade fee mechanics (standings requirements for optimal fee discounts for traders make a single corp hosting the majority of trade a _good thing_ for profit margins, and drives mission runners who are raising standings to operate in the same general area of space as Jita because that’s _where the missions are_ for Caldari Navy) - just to name a few other components that are in play here. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/72 "2022-06-13T08:49:29Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > To me the WHYs don’t really matter And that’s you out of the conversation. Bye! ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/73 "2022-06-13T08:52:14Z")
😂 You are clearly a dreamer. I understand though, wanting to grasp at any excuse to weasel out of a conversation instead of engaging with someone with a good argument and experience that earnestly responds to you in substantive ways. Not a great look TBH. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Sklor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tom_sklor/32/323940_2.png) [@Tom\_Sklor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tom_Sklor)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 9:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/74 "2022-06-13T09:01:10Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > you’re just going to get people freighting ■■■■ out of Jita, building, and freighting the supply back into Jita BY JOVE I THINK HE’S GOT IT!!! WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA!!! WHY, I COULD EVEN SET MY BUY AND SELL ORDERS SUCH THAT SOMEONE ELSE WILL DO THE HAULING FOR ME!!! BY JOVE!! GENOUS!! PUR GENOUS!! ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/75 "2022-06-13T09:06:33Z")
Yes, because if people like you aren’t willing to place buy orders for 200mm Autocannon IIs in Rens today, those _other_ people _must_ be willing to place buy orders for next-level-down materials in Rens today. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Sklor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tom_sklor/32/323940_2.png) [@Tom\_Sklor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tom_Sklor)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2022, 9:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/76 "2022-06-13T09:17:22Z")
Lol. I place mat buy orders where I need them. They even fill too. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 9:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499/77 "2022-09-11T09:18:19Z")
This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/bringing-back-manufacturing-slots-would-have-a-positive-impact/366499.md?page=3)