# Broker Relations **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog\ **Created:** [February 24, 2020, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752 "2020-02-24T10:10:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/469 "2020-02-25T00:45:18Z")
> [@Aodh\_MacDonald](#): > > Just wait for the out out of game websites listing stuff for sale bypassing the market I doubt that will be a factor at all. Coordinating with someone to create a transaction using a third-party service and then execute the trade in game is going to be way more hassle than it’s worth. The vast majority of players will deal with the in game market, even if it theoretically might not be the best price. Out of game deals will continue to be a very rare exception to the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/470 "2020-02-25T00:46:04Z")
Like Red Frog’s out-of-game courier contract system? ---
**Author:** ![Sky\_Marshal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sky_marshal/32/248701_2.png) [@Sky\_Marshal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sky_Marshal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/471 "2020-02-25T00:49:22Z")
> [@The\_Rednutter](#): > > - Leave margin trading in, but if your wallet goes below what would be needed to fulfill any ONE oder, it cancels that oder. Leaves some liquidity for low capital traders, but gets rid of margin trading scams ( it’s Not Hard to track highest market oders in comparison to wallet balance) > - market oders can be updated as often as you want, with a 1% cost of item fee if changed within the first hour, .5% the first day, .2% the first week, and nothing if it is more than a week old. (Change the numbers a Little if you see fit, but there needs to be a way to update oders on rare items that sell one or two a month without bankrupting yourself.) > - randomize the last four (or 5, or 6 depending on the price of the item) digits of sell and buy oders, so you can’t exactly 0.01 isk someone. You can either undercut them by a decent margin, or role the dice and hope you beat them at the 0.01 isk game. The last proposition is bad because randomness. It is the reason why I hate games like Heartstone and similar, luck is not in my side in general. EVE is a game of reflection and effort so if the margin is low, it shouldn’t be cancelled because dices. Still, the first two ones are great IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Aodh\_MacDonald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aodh_macdonald/32/282731_2.png) [@Aodh\_MacDonald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aodh_MacDonald)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/472 "2020-02-25T00:51:53Z")
You know I like to think better of people but this is Eve and other games looking at you ( Blizzard North) it has and still does happen. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/473 "2020-02-25T00:53:04Z")
There is no rule against it, so why do you think it is bad? ---
**Author:** ![Demortis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demortis/32/442327_2.png) [@Demortis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Demortis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/474 "2020-02-25T00:53:23Z")
Get off yours high horse’s and get some respect for your players really game over for EVE with all this assery and game mods. Make EvE the way it was fun not a downer you must only listen to the office staff and think yea I want to make this nothing like RL lets put in a mandatory tick so it’s nothing like real economices and plus for the guys having a hard time selling carriers or larger give them a secondary tax to take the isk right out of there pockets from the get go. What I’m getting is don’t mine to make isk from the last update and this one is like if you do build something and are having a hard time selling don’t worry we the CCP cult have a plan to take any hope of isk you have. Total BS in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/475 "2020-02-25T00:55:45Z")
I’ll take your stuff, btw. Just contract it to me, no questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![Demortis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demortis/32/442327_2.png) [@Demortis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Demortis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/476 "2020-02-25T00:59:51Z")
Naw I will just store it all again for a year and try again loss enough subs they might smarten up the are already down 20K in active online over the last few years its slowing. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/477 "2020-02-25T01:00:42Z")
> [@Demortis](#): > > already down 20K in active online over the last few years its slowing. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/1/614d8f139ea29c73c56720d5410ab62a13eb130c.png) ??? Are we playing the same game here? ---
**Author:** ![Demortis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demortis/32/442327_2.png) [@Demortis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Demortis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/478 "2020-02-25T01:02:13Z")
see 2012 to 2014 50K daily thats alot more then the 20-30K of todays die hards. But thank for proving my point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/479 "2020-02-25T01:03:10Z")
> [@Demortis](#): > > see 2012 to 2014 %0K daily thats alot more then the 20-30K of todays die hards. Please show me any other MMORPG that’s gone counter to that trend other than World of Warcraft, which is an exception and not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Demortis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demortis/32/442327_2.png) [@Demortis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Demortis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/480 "2020-02-25T01:06:10Z")
What does that have to do with my main topic of CCP messing with the game? I don’t care who has the most what I care about is keeping the ones we got vs CCP taking from pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Douglas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roger_douglas/32/300220_2.png) [@Roger\_Douglas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Roger_Douglas)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/481 "2020-02-25T01:08:10Z")
All of this comes from an order matching system that assumes that the lowest sell or highest buy will always be the default choice. This then requires those who are looking to acquire goods to always have the highest buy, and those looking to sell always have the lowest sell. This causes the behavior that you’re trying to add negative feedback too. Rather than add negatives, why not address the primary assumption about the order matching system? Possibly there could be some randomness in the bid/ask system? Buys or sells that are out of the market price range stay on for too long and lock up capital and goods for longer periods. If you want to increase velocity, reduce total time orders can stay on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Pellam](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jack_pellam/32/180409_2.png) [@Jack\_Pellam](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jack_Pellam)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/482 "2020-02-25T01:08:20Z")
Eh, I wouldn’t bother arguing – he’s picked up the goal posts and has left the field… ---
**Author:** ![Tater-nuts](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tater-nuts/32/189043_2.png) [@Tater-nuts](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tater-nuts)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/483 "2020-02-25T01:09:07Z")
Prediction: September 1, 2020 Market liquidity has dried up, orders and trading volume way down causing stale markets, especially outside Jita and Amarr. Any high sec market outside these two hubs will have dried up and died on the vine. ---
**Author:** ![Demortis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demortis/32/442327_2.png) [@Demortis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Demortis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/484 "2020-02-25T01:12:39Z")
Correct Tater hence the comment when you live in a place that has to much tax or a pricing enforcement in RL the markets die and only the massive corps that can overcome the taxes and subpar pay to workers survive. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/485 "2020-02-25T01:13:26Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > On realistic markets, customers can choose to buy from someone else than the lowest-price seller for various reasons; in EVE supporting or boycotting particular suppliers would be crucial. My old corp CEO asked this question to a CCP dev at a fan fest a few years go, she responded that this kind of mechanic would be less likely to be implemented. At the time, the interest was in being able to identify who it was that put up scam orders, like adaptive invulns for 1 billion, or selling a plex for the cost of 500 in the hope of getting some early scams. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > I worry that the escrow-in-full and order-change fees will favor big-time traders in favor of newbies / small guys though. Agreed, I wish margin trading had stayed, but its hard to separate those who use it honestly against those who do not. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > When does that stop? Is it really that bad if fewer people just sit in stations doing market PvP when they could be out enjoying systems outside of Jita? > [@Giddy\_McFee](#): > > 1: if the discount for the Advanced Broker Relations skill is 50% at a skill level of 0 means that everyone will at least get a 50% discount, surely discount should be 0% at skill level 0 rising 15% per level until 75% at level 5 That actually makes more sense. I guess the %50 base amount is something that CCP wants be able to use as a lever further on down the track. > [@Erwin\_Madelung](#): > > This will make it worse. Can’t hurt any more than blackout did. > [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > The margin trading scam depending on the client lying to a player. This was bad. I know, and when I filled a petition to the GM’s I got the ‘this is a valid game mechanic’ form letter response. > [@Imiarr\_Timshae](#): > > Market traders have been vocal about struggling to deal with bots for years, so you do something that punishes the same traders as much as the botters? Hilarious. I think the article was pretty clear that it will punish %5 of the trading population, and those %5 will likely go broke if they don’t stop. > [@Imiarr\_Timshae](#): > > Will I know of my 300 orders that for Salvager II’s I’ve already done 2 relists so a further one would defeat my profitability because I inherently know exactly what my buy price was when I purchased them 4 days ago? Miners/Manufactures are already selling below cost, since there seems to be a mentality that asteroids are free. If you aren’t selling things at a price that recoups your game time in plex, your underselling, its that simple. > [@Ugren\_Okaski](#): > > And lose thousand times more ISK than you instead of just 100 ISK. It might be cheaper to just wait when your order fulfills. This makes a lot of sense. It switches from a constant trading floor of screaming and yelling back and forth, and more towards grabbing a number and waiting in line. > [@Franklin\_Knox](#): > > This will cause a lot of market volatility in the materials part of the market and will eventually crush the smaller/newer industrialist and force them out of their profession if they have to either have their buy orders sit behind very large orders that are multiple days worth of volume or pay the extra brokers fee to jump their buy order up. You could always put up a contract? > [@Nicholas\_Goldfinder](#): > > The scam could have been killed using a disclaimer. A disclaimer? Like a warning sign not to pee into pool actually stops it from happening? > [@Maximillian\_Logos](#): > > So not only are you killing my income, which of course sucks, because it will force me to leave eve eventually as i dont have the income in real life to support this game. You could just go back to running incursions? > [@Provagus\_Great](#): > > Option 2: filaments. Result? PVP increased. Players love it. Not when they use it to teleport out because their interceptor scout says there is a massive gate camp waiting for them ahead. > [@Huren\_Sakara](#): > > You might be right about trading in Jita or Amarr, but there are a lot of places you can trade profitably without ever having to update an order. Oh, but is so much easier to just sit in Jita and using high-frequency-trading style shenanigans to make money! > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > The player behind the order lied, and that’s about as Core Eve as it gets. Margin trading in real life results in some pretty serious repercussions if you are called and everything is underwater. In Eve the scammer gets off unpunished, its doubtful the scamming would have been as prevalent if it resulted in the locking of assets and negative wallet balances, or loss of some kind of security. > [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > That’s not a lie in the client? Yes, but not according to CCP. Will I get my ISK back? Lol. > [@Xeux](#): > > These changes only lead in one direction - encouraging players to avoid the market as much as possible. The fewer folk sitting in Jita the better. > [@Val\_Kaleth](#): > > All I read here is, cancel all indy and market alt accounts, and just gank to steal what I need, since why bother trying to make an honest isk. Please, since that will force CCP to fix that toxicity too. > [@San\_Ti](#): > > Why don’t you introduce a type of captcha that players engaging in these types of trades must complete every few hours or so? Because the IGB was removed ages ago. > [@TeamGreen](#): > > And now finally remove the asset safety from citadels, so the game is meaningful again and you have to play active instead of going AFK with all your assets. Until EVE gets DDOS’d again and you can’t log in and all of your stuff gets blown up because of your inablity to be active? > [@Sylvia\_Kildare](#): > > Yeah, and Ishtars were useful for PVE but they (and sentries) got nerfed into the ground because blobs of kitey shield Ishtars were annoying nullsec PVPers Sadly the days of the Ishtar were preferable to the super blobs of today. > [@GoldLeader](#): > > That said, please allow us to choose who we buy from. This, if only to see if there is a market for ‘conflict free’ materials. > [@Dark\_Lord\_Trump](#): > > For margin trading, why not have orders glow red and display a tooltop when the buyer doesn’t have enough ISK to fulfill it? Because that would probably red flag all their trades. > [@Sylvia\_Kildare](#): > > Yes, but also… people CAN put orders at the same price. You don’t have to undercut someone else by 1 mil ISK any more than you HAD to do it by 0.01 ISK. Yup. Take a number and get in line. > [@Pedro\_Yurgin](#): > > How does this fight into the fight themed focus? If its too hot in front of the abacus, get out of the Jita? > [@Arrendis](#): > > CCP ‘trying to make’ people play or not play a specific way, though? That’s kinda… concerning. What happens when they decide that _your_ particular playstyle isn’t ‘right’? Five corporations responsible for the majority of high security wars with a 100:1 K/D ratio Cyno’s on every ship during blackout Margin Trading Scam Moon Goo POS Gravy Train Sometime progress needs sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/486 "2020-02-25T01:14:59Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Is it really that bad if fewer people just sit in stations doing market PvP when they could be out enjoying systems outside of Jita? The trend in the game design touches all apects of the game, not just this. So that was more about overall approach to game design. ---
**Author:** ![Hellbender\_Devildog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellbender_devildog/32/187986_2.png) [@Hellbender\_Devildog](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hellbender_Devildog)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/488 "2020-02-25T01:22:48Z")
Nooo … You’re a bot, and you know it. LOL. why give a standard 50% discount? That is like a sale at the mall. If you give it everyone or standardize it, you might as well just price it for less. And then give the proverbial Eve 5% skill bonus onto that?. Anyway… I guess those drunken market order scams will get murdered by this. So that’s good……. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_SmashAlot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sir_smashalot/32/381178_2.png) [@Sir\_SmashAlot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sir_SmashAlot)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/489 "2020-02-25T01:25:42Z")
RIP Market PVP. With over 250k transactions in a year, market pvp has been a core element to what makes EVE fun for me. With these changes, this play style will be pointless. I am not quitting, I will adapt, but I am skeptical that these changes will have the desired outcome. After ~10 updates on both sides (bid for materials, offering finished items), nearly all manufactured items will be unprofitable to produce and list for offer under these changes. For spread arbitrage, the bid / offer spread will widen to reflect the approximate tax friction, this relationship will be unique to every item. Quantitatively understanding the impact of a non-trivial transaction tax will be left to only a few properly trained individuals with sophisticated 3rd party tools, which I suspect is not a game-play goal set out by the dev team. Being good at math as always been an advantage in EVE market game play, but to solve the transaction tax relationship will require fairly challenging model building (hello abyssal item valuation). Swing trading will get a boost; however, few humans love waiting around for months to get any action. Fun will shift from player to player interaction, to player + ESI / Statistics. I prefer trader rage mails over spreadsheets. Combine update tax with no margin trading mechanic, where is the incentive to provide liquidity? Players will be far better off just direct buying and selling. Market bots will not give a ■■■■. One more math problem to solve, some new automation rules to write, then back to business as usual. Many small orders will be preferred, creating a micromanagement requirement best suited for automation. Small scale is advantageous as large scale liquidity might be hard to find, this is a boon for bots as automation makes it easy to have 10 small time trade bots versus 1 tycoon. For real humans, it is the large scale capital movement that provides a competitive advantage and these changes could destroy that. If this patch is intended to bring fun to the market pew pew community, then drop the 5 min delay to trade order updates and keep everything the same. EDIT: The Tick sizing is glorious, I love it. If I had my way, just bring that in and see what happens. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752.md?page=23) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752.md?page=25)