# Broker Relations **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog\ **Created:** [February 24, 2020, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752 "2020-02-24T10:10:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![icaci](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/icaci/32/188834_2.png) [@icaci](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/icaci)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1037 "2020-02-28T10:58:23Z")
Bots actually have huge advantage in approximating both Y and Z. One can easily retrieve the orders in a region and track exactly how individual orders get filled and how they move. That’s a lot of information for a human to digest, so one needs a tool that presents some kind of summary statistics. Bots, on the other hand, can incorporate this fine-grained information in the core of their engines and adapt immediately to market changes. Same goes for managing the bunch of small stacks with an optimal strategy that minimises the total number of relisted orders. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1038 "2020-02-28T11:02:42Z")
> [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > Widgets typically sell at a rate of Y > New listings are created at a rate of Z sorry but those mean nothing. What you can say, is that widgets are sold by average quantity Q with an average number of sale per 1 min S (let’s assume they are constant over an hour) . So the average rate is S\*Q items per minute. That’s important, because if your sell order are of size below Q( actually below Q max spread), then they won’t tale all the sale - meaning you actually reduce your sell rate. if eg plex are sold by 100-5000 quantities, with a median quantity 500, and average 4 orders per minute, if you place 1-plex offers one after the other, even with 100% visibility you will only fill 4 orders of 1 plex per minute instead of 2000 so literally 0.2% of the market exchanges. Then if you are going with 500 plex offers (in order to fill half the orders), you will still not have 100% of the orders. > [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > If I list X in subsets of x’ ≈ Y, then I can expect to update my orders **~1 \* Z times** – (x’/Y) \* Z That’s assuming you are alone on the market. (forgetting the error you may have made in the formula) If you are not alone, people will place new orders with a rate N per minute in order to cut you (typically 0.3). With 3 people that means you have a visibility of 33%, so that means any order you place is visible for less than 1 minute. so V being the chance that there is less than your quantity amount sold during 1 min, each order will literally be stuck with a prob V (let’s say 0.25). Which means that after M minutes, you added N×M orders, with N×M×V orders being very small and not sold out. In the example, it means per hour you lose 0.25×0.3×60 = 4.5 orders What you’re trying to describe is what I wrote here : > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > The only case where it matters, is if using smaller orders make them be sold BEFORE being cut enough to be at loss. But then the only way to do that, is to sell items minimal value by minimal value, and hope to not get cut - because if you’re cut and nobody buys during that time, you are still at loss. And that’s already doable now. > [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > You aren’t avoiding the new tax, you are minimizing its effects on your margins. You are not. Unless you are alone on the market, of course. You are literally letting orders die in order to not pay the tax - that means losing more than the tax, from broker fees. Good job. > [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > But you are only eating that loss on that fraction of your total orders, which are unlikely to experience the same run of bad luck. lol ? If your algorithm is bad, you will remain at loss. Period. > [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > Sadly, I foresee a lot of newbros losing big when they attempt to break into industry for the first time, let alone simple market trading. The first one is already the case, and the second one is a good thing. The goal is not to delete bots. The goal is to reduce their effect on the game. > [@Zoltan\_Irvam](#): > > If spread has been removed for an item, sell orders around the current price will be snagged up until only those priced quite a bit higher are left and the spread is there again. That’s happening now. I mean, I do "a bit " of industry. > [@Zoltan\_Irvam](#): > > An industrialist on the other hand needs time as he has invested in escrow, blueprints, research and skills to build a product. That’s why you should report that time on the price of your items. that’s the basic of industry : if it cost “time”, or “investment”, that should be considered in the price of the item. Before the margin. > [@Zoltan\_Irvam](#): > > I have seen the small order bot behavior driving prices up to what seemed equilibrium (helped by some who made big jumps in order offer a “fair price” only to get overbid by the minimum amount seconds later) in very actively traded markets for some of my raw mats. Because no equilibrium was ever reached as long as the bot was active - sell orders near what seemed equilibrium were snagged up instantly and the bus rode on uphill. And maybe it was not a bot. I was cutting back someone who was cutting me a lot(by using small orders). I think he thought I was a bot since I had very fast reaction. Then I dump a lot of items with a huge cut, reaching above my margin limit. he moves all his orders to -0.01, then I move all my small orders to 0.8\* (my value) by small increments and I cut him. I drove him to 0.8, so I just canceled my little orders as other people were putting their orders below his.in the end we went from 1.5 (that’s the maximum price I sell my items) to 0.8, and I’m pretty sure he believed I was a bot at first. > [@Zoltan\_Irvam](#): > > When this happens the only way is to leave your order sit and wait a few days until things cool down a bit. Yes, it is. > [@Rheinhard\_Kurtz](#): > > If i’m a small producer, if my profit on something I made is 10%, everytime I undercut someone(or just change price), you get taxed 0.7% SO …: > you change your order 14 times, and your 10% profit is gone in fees. (i think) > So you can’t even drive prices down to get rid of people, and then set them back up again. It’s your choice to produce items that are worth only 10% margin. If the margin is so low, don’t even start to produce. Also yes, it’s better to let your order EITHER with more than 10+0.7= 10.7% margin, and then allow to move it later for once below that threshold; OR if it’s below 10.7% margin, don’t update it. > [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > Stop talking about “bypassing” the fees. No one said anything about bypassing the fees. Yes you literally did. That’s why your post is stupid. > [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > I already explained to you that the bot order limit is irrelevant. Because ALTS are a thing. That’s not an explanation. That’s a stupid claim. You just keep claiming things stupid. > [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > At this point you are incredibly low IQ, or just trolling. “no, it’s you”. At this point, you have literally nothing to add and realize that you were stupid all along. > [@icaci](#): > > Bots actually have huge advantage in approximating both Y and Z. One can easily retrieve the orders in a region and track exactly how individual orders get filled and how they move. “easily”. Just as easily as non-bot program would do. That’s also a lot of information for a program to digest, and the digest must be coded by a human - with all the bugs this can imply. ---
**Author:** ![Optimus\_Maximus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/optimus_maximus/32/368882_2.png) [@Optimus\_Maximus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Optimus_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1039 "2020-02-28T11:29:39Z")
No i never did say anything about bypassing any fees. Stop claiming I did. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That’s also a lot of information for a program to digest, and the digest must be coded by a human - with all the bugs this can imply. Once again you are so wrong. SMH. This is trivial, unless you are an amateur developer who dont know what you are doing. The bulk of the processing time would not be actual processing, but downloading the hundreds of market data pages from the ESI endpoints. But you could use multithreading and cut down the time a lot. Once you have the data, coding the rest is easy. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1040 "2020-02-28T11:50:33Z")
> [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > This is trivial, unless you are an amateur developer who dont know what you are doing. The bulk of the processing time would not be actual processing, but downloading the hundreds of market data pages from the ESI endpoints. But you could use multithreading and cut down the time a lot. > Once you have the data, coding the rest is easy. No it’s not. You have no possibility to distinguish if an order has been completed or canceled by the owner. It’s just an example of why you are talking out of your arse. Not the only one actually. You never download 200 pages sequentially , “unless you are an amateur developer who don’t know what you are doing”. It just shows that you actually have no idea what you are talking about. The issue is not the retrieval of data, it’s the extraction of meaningful information. Because the way you see it, and the way it actually is, are two different things. Downloading the pages is child’s play, you have tools for event-driven model of the market that allow you to make triggers when you are eg cut, when an item becomes worth investing in, etc. Having the list of the present order, every 5 minutes, is not even relevant to being a problem. If you are talking about that as any issue, then you are “an amateur developer who dont know what you are doing”. > [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > No i never did say anything about bypassing any fees. Stop claiming I did. Yes, you literally answered to me saying that bots would still sell at loss if they keep updating the orders, that no because small orders. “At this point you are incredibly low IQ, or just trolling.” ---
**Author:** ![Rheinhard\_Kurtz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rheinhard_kurtz/32/373876_2.png) [@Rheinhard\_Kurtz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rheinhard_Kurtz)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1041 "2020-02-28T11:57:42Z")
why don’t you two just **quote** what the other person actually said, just to avoid all the miscommunication ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1042 "2020-02-28T11:59:30Z")
I already try. The forum removes the quote when it’s the previous message though ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1043 "2020-02-28T12:00:00Z")
^in this message I quote you but the forum did edit my post to remove it^ that’s why there is a number of edit : 1 on it, even though I did not edit it. [![Imgur](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/f/3f8e6f1ba952a01e46f18653360c5518de438f2a.jpeg "Screenshot at 13:01:00.png") ](https://imgur.com/y70xCnp) ---
**Author:** ![Rheinhard\_Kurtz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rheinhard_kurtz/32/373876_2.png) [@Rheinhard\_Kurtz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rheinhard_Kurtz)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1044 "2020-02-28T12:00:30Z")
does this work: “in this message I quote you but the forum did edit my post to remove it” ---
**Author:** ![Optimus\_Maximus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/optimus_maximus/32/368882_2.png) [@Optimus\_Maximus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Optimus_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1045 "2020-02-28T12:03:26Z")
Jita alone was well over 200 pages a few months ago when I last did it. Fact. And what do you mean you don’t download 200 pages sequentially? CCP’s ESI is a 3rd party service, and 3rd parties usually may restrict or ban requests depending on a myriad of different factors. Opening tens of threads, each one performing one market data page request at the same time, and doing this for the 1000+ of data pages that exist, would be a great way for their dev team to notice you and ban you. It’s not irrelevant to get market data every 5 minutes. Bots usually work on the market for the region they are in, but they lack the overall panorama, because the bot operators don’t care about such things. A great trader bot would not only trade on the market of his own region in realtime - it would also check the pricing of items across the entire universe and how they move, to make informed decisions or alert his operator about opportunities. And I never said it’s an issue, I said the bulk of the processing TIME would be downloading the data because of this intentional throttling. Once you’ve got the data and you’ve coded your use cases against it, carrying out the processing would take a few seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Optimus\_Maximus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/optimus_maximus/32/368882_2.png) [@Optimus\_Maximus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Optimus_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1046 "2020-02-28T12:07:41Z")
> [@Rheinhard\_Kurtz](#): > > why don’t you two just **quote** what the other person actually said, just to avoid all the miscommunication Quotes work just fine, but he misinterprets every comment. He claims I said bots could bypass the relist fee, when in reality I stated that low volume order relisting would incur in less absolute losses than higher volume orders. He claims I meant bots with low volume orders just BYPASS the fee completely. At this point im convinced he’s just trolling, I mean, he does not even acknowledge that a single person could use alts to work around the order limit. > [@](#): > > Quote test Quotes work just fine. Just type [quote] and then close it, and copy paste the message between the tags and they will be ok. It’s just he doesnt know how to use it properly. WHAT A SURPRISE !!! ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1047 "2020-02-28T12:10:00Z")
> [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > CCP’s ESI is a 3rd party service, and 3rd parties usually may restrict or ban requests depending on a myriad of different factors. > Opening tens of threads, each one performing one market data page request at the same time, and doing this for the 1000+ of data pages that exist, would be a great way for their dev team to notice you and ban you. Thank you for proving you are an amateur dev and are talking out of your arse. > [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > Once you’ve got the data and you’ve coded your use cases against it, carrying out the processing would take a few seconds. No, you just **can’t** have exact data from the ESI about what is sold. You can have an approximate, but then several thing will be misleading and you need to fix them with historical data. Learn to read, I did not claim that the processing would take time. I answered to > [@icaci](#): > > One can easily retrieve the orders in a region and track exactly how individual orders get filled and how they move. And my point is that it’s not “easy” to track exactly “how individual orders get filled and how they move.” And to that you answer “but you can download data” ? Learn to keep the context in mind when you answer, idiot. It’s the second time you answer to my post as if there was a different context. It only shows that you are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Rheinhard\_Kurtz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rheinhard_kurtz/32/373876_2.png) [@Rheinhard\_Kurtz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rheinhard_Kurtz)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1048 "2020-02-28T12:12:42Z")
So you mean: (if i have this right), that you WILL probably be stuck with ‘dead’ orders, but if you split your stack into tiny amounts, only some of those will be dead, instead of potentially the entire stack? Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1049 "2020-02-28T12:12:43Z")
> [@Dunk\_Dinkle](#): > > We are likely to see a lot of this behavior because it minimizes capital exposure on the market and maximizes chances for trade. It’s a sound trading strategy if you can handle all that clicking. > > Bots would be extremely effective at placing multiple small quantity orders to block others and maintain top position to allow most buys/sells. Worth repeating! The optimal strategy will be to place small orders, and then replace them as soon as the previous order is filled. Bots will love it, humans will hate it. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1050 "2020-02-28T12:14:47Z")
> [@Rheinhard\_Kurtz](#): > > So you mean: (if i have this right), that you WILL probably be stuck with ‘dead’ orders, but if you split your stack into tiny amounts, only some of those will be dead, instead of potentially the entire stack? Yes? No, he means that when all the orders are dead the bot will create a new alpha account to have access to more free orders, because “alts are a thing”. > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > Worth repeating! The optimal strategy will be to place small orders, and then replace them as soon as the previous order is filled. Bots will love it, humans will hate it. And this is a change compared to now because … no reason ? ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1051 "2020-02-28T12:21:11Z")
Anderson Geten, no need to reply to me. You are blocked, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1052 "2020-02-28T12:21:45Z")
Then why are you replying exactly ? Because you NEED to reply me ? Weren’t you claiming that “correlation IS a causation, trust me I have a PhD” again ? ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1053 "2020-02-28T12:30:12Z")
Anderson, please work on your reading comprehension. Since you are blocked, that means I don’t read your messages, so you are just talking to yourself hun. Lots of people all across the forum have told you that you have a problem - get help friend. ---
**Author:** ![Optimus\_Maximus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/optimus_maximus/32/368882_2.png) [@Optimus\_Maximus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Optimus_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1054 "2020-02-28T12:31:06Z")
3rd party services will ban you if your requests exceed a certain threshold and they have a policy against that. The most restrictive ones will even automate it so you will get your ban the instant it happens. I am not sure what CCP’s policy is or if they have anything in place, but I am not going to find out It does happen, I’ve seen it happen (not in EVE though). And I’m answering to your > [@](#): > > That’s also a lot of information for a program to digest, and the digest must be coded by a human - with all the bugs this can imply. My answer to this is it is quite trivial to code. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Then why are you replying exactly ? Because you NEED to reply me ? > > Weren’t you claiming that “correlation IS a causation, trust me I have a PhD” again ? Hahah Man, I’m sure CCP employees have a real-size poster of you in their office. Every time they are reluctant to pull of a change or lie to the playerbase, they look at your avatar’s face and they get encouraged. A: “We cannot do this, it’s so obvious, they will notice and unsubscribe” B: “Nah, remember Anderson Geten - we also have players like him who will always white-knight us” A: “But he’s incredibly ignorant on so many levels” B: “His money is just as good” A: “You are right let’s get on with it” ---
**Author:** ![Optimus\_Maximus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/optimus_maximus/32/368882_2.png) [@Optimus\_Maximus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Optimus_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1057 "2020-02-28T12:37:12Z")
You just said > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Liar. > Get help, retard. and one post below > [@](#): > > Again, insults show that you know you are wrong. > Go ■■■■ yourself. Don’t forget protection, use your tinfoil hat. HAHAHAHAHAHAH You made me laugh so much with that. Dude, your blood pressure. Im seriously getting worried about you. At this point this thread should be renamed “Broker Relations, or Anderson Geten vs all” ROFL ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752/1058 "2020-02-28T12:38:13Z")
Yeah now you realize your point was stupid all along and you go on personal attacks only. Nice to show your true personality : claim BS, then attack the person. Also thank you for proving you are an amateur dev and are talking out of your arse. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752.md?page=51) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/broker-relations/221752.md?page=53)