# Caldari Corporatism: Profit and Social Benefit **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767 "2019-12-11T02:17:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/41 "2019-12-15T05:30:41Z")
Yes, the Caldari majority holds the most power in the State so it is structured and functions accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunetta_hakaari/32/441047_2.png) [@Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunetta_Hakaari)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/42 "2019-12-15T05:39:56Z")
Power is held by the Manegerial classes, or are you making the claim that the State is democratic? ---
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 6:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/43 "2019-12-15T06:14:18Z")
A Caldari manager is still Caldari. The only claim I’m making (which is self-evident) is that Caldari wield power within the State. ---
**Author:** ![Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunetta_hakaari/32/441047_2.png) [@Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunetta_Hakaari)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 6:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/44 "2019-12-15T06:21:30Z")
Class differences are a much more important. Just because one is Caldari does not mean the interests if those in power benefit those who are not. Even if they believe themselves to be one and the same the worldview of both groups inevitably deviate from eachother as a result. “Caldari wield power within the State” makes no difference when someone with different class interests to you wields that power. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/45 "2019-12-15T07:09:33Z")
You might not like what happens when the people of the State gain power, Ms. Hakaari. Although he’s not remembered fondly now, in his time Tibus Heth was very much a “man of the people.” In hindsight, he’s an example of why leadership is generally best left to those qualified to lead. Nobody asks or expects the laborer and technician castes (or MTAC operators) to keep a sophisticated or nuanced worldview. And mostly, they don’t. The Templis Dragonaurs have remained a threat for centuries precisely because they represent traditional Caldari virtues taken without a single ounce of nuance or moderation and so can portray themselves as “the people’s” heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunetta_hakaari/32/441047_2.png) [@Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunetta_Hakaari)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/46 "2019-12-15T07:18:42Z")
I see Heth as a cautionary tale against the concept of leaders. This is why people having power over others is an abberation that must be reduced as much as possible. This is a problem in the political psyche. We only view positions of power in terms of who occupy them. Not whether or not we should abolish them. The Heth Regime was a horrific thing, but this claim that it proves the virtues of the class system is a deeply flawed analysis that ignores the problems of hierarchical structures as a concept. This is why I have no real appreciation for the Gallente system. As it also focuses on who occupies positions of power instead of flattening them out. ---
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/47 "2019-12-15T07:27:30Z")
I only have to look at independent capsuleers to see the perils of power not moderated by social conventions or political hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/48 "2019-12-15T07:28:20Z")
You really do seem to like lost causes, Ms. Hakaari. You’re a member of probably the most anarchic class of people in New Eden, but that class can only exist in this state because we’re ridiculously well-shielded by the law to the point of literally getting away with murder. And we still have huge hierarchies. Actually, individually, within our own domains we’re all basically petty tyrants. So. Um. This longing for anarchy seems like it might be a little naive? ---
**Author:** ![Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunetta_hakaari/32/441047_2.png) [@Lunetta\_Hakaari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunetta_Hakaari)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/49 "2019-12-15T07:30:49Z")
In this regard I would say that’s more a problem of being so high up on the hierarchy we are accountable to no one. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/50 "2019-12-15T07:34:10Z")
Sooo … before we get rid of all these entrenched structural hierarchies, maybe we should, like, at least solve the Triglavian crisis and maybe the Drifter crisis first? It doesn’t seem like we’ll have the concentrated resources to challenge them after. Or, you know, stop ourselves getting rolled by Sansha’s Nation, or the Angel Cartel, or … I really don’t get why you’d think this is a good or workable idea, Ms. Hakaari. ---
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/51 "2019-12-15T07:43:32Z")
Yes, which is why I think subordination to a hierarchy is important. It promotes accountability and prevents abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/52 "2019-12-15T10:55:19Z")
> [@Lunetta\_Hakaari](#): > > In this regard I would say that’s more a problem of being so high up on the hierarchy we are accountable to no one. That sounds to me like you’re in an ineffectual hierarchy. There’s 31,073 people I’m accountable to, in 3 different hierarchies. ---
**Author:** ![Corvus\_Tacet](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corvus_tacet/32/209122_2.png) [@Corvus\_Tacet](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corvus_Tacet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 11:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/53 "2019-12-15T11:35:59Z")
There is no need to “justify” Caldari Society, we care little for that. This thread was only made to explain that every Caldari in the State has a place and the “enslavement” of the “lower class” is just a misconception. A term used by someone who didn’t experience it. It’s an hard way of life, but a communal one. ---
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/54 "2019-12-16T07:36:29Z")
The common misconception I feel made by outsiders is that Caldari citizens are somehow coerced or tricked in the State to serve it. The notion that the Caldari State represents what its citizens want and their service to it is voluntary and complicit is anathema to such people. I think fundamentally there are aspects of Caldari history and culture told through our stories and traditions such as the survivalism required to live on an inhospitable world, and the anarchy of war both pre and post Raata Empire that informs a certain perspective. That without a strong central authority under a singular sovereign in which is invested the power to rule then the result is humans versus humans fighting each other over limited resources and in which the fear of violent death at the hands of another becomes a reality for there is only chaos and anarchy. As such, I think the Caldari State is a Caldari formulation of a peaceful commonwealth where its citizens do not have to fear anarchy, violence or death. It is however a peace and prosperity ensured only through strong political authority and the singular leadership of corporate executives. ---
**Author:** ![Valiran\_Teleros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valiran_teleros/32/504787_2.png) [@Valiran\_Teleros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valiran_Teleros)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/55 "2019-12-21T21:23:19Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > Grooming a population for _future_ efficiency of profit in the long-term rather than a short-term—including all the societal benefits that are paid out to ensure that workers become and remain efficient—is _still_ a profit motive. > > The only difference is in length of foresight. It’s also not entirely a bad thing. Focusing on long-term stability and growth tends to work out better for the average worker than chasing short-term gains and maximizing quarterly revenue. We’ve all heard stories about a corporation having an unexpected downturn in profits and laying off workers as a result, but the chances of that happening in the State are almost nonexistent because the megacorps take pains to ensure there are safety nets in place for such events. Sure, some of the workers might not have any work to do in the foreseeable future, but even if they aren’t making as much money as they used to they’re still paid a livable wage, and in all but the most exceptional circumstances have the option of free vocational training that will allow them to find work in other fields if their current skillset doesn’t qualify them for any available jobs. The result of these policies is a workforce who doesn’t live with the fear of suddenly losing their income due to circumstances beyond their control because they _know_ that, so long as they do their best to contribute however they can, they’ll be taken care of. Unless there has been a catastrophic failure at the management level then there’s no risk of someone losing their home and being unable to pay for food because of the company failing to hit its fiscal targets; at most, a worker will have to ration their purchases of luxury goods until they get another job and a better source of income. Whatever the State’s flaws, failing to take good care of the workforce is not one of them, and their increasingly systemic mistreatment before Heth’s reign is _exactly_ the kind of shortsighted stupidity that megacorp leadership is taught to _avoid_. I sincerely hope things don’t backslide now that he’s out of power. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Gesakaarin-haan describes State priorities correctly, Mr. Quatrevaux-- at least, that’s the way it works when it’s working the way it should. The State’s at its strongest when those trusted with power wield it on behalf of the Caldari people, for the good of the Caldari people. It’s weakest when they forget a government’s duty to its people and think of themselves only as running for-profit corporations. I would go further and say that the conflict between the needs of the many and the desires of the few is a battle that constantly rages in _any_ government. Some systems are better at keeping individual ambitions in check than others or fare better in different areas. > [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Non-entities represent those who by their own actions refuse to fit in and contribute to Caldari society. Those who refuse to conform to the needs of Caldari society should not be afforded the benefits of Caldari society. If that’s the case, then I believe that instead of simply casting such individuals out, with no family, friends, or rights, it would be preferable if there was a socially viable alternative to living in the Caldari State. Since people naturally dislike the idea of being cut off from everyone and everything they knew with no chance of ever returning, this would likely reduce the problems which naturally result from people who simply don’t fit in with Caldari society having anywhere to go that won’t get them disowned by their family. > [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Meaning and utility are derived from culture and traditions. Just because you or other minorities might disagree with the nature of Caldari culture and the resulting economic, political, and social systems that have arisen from that culture does not diminish the value or importance it plays in informing the lives of State citizens. Could you expand on this? I’m not entirely sure what you mean by it. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Take aesthetics: important enough to both Federation and Empire to have a utility all their own, yet so aggressively rejected by the State that it’s hard to justify as simple utilitarianism. Would a Raata artisan really have taken pride in harsh lines and pragmatic look without ever having met a decadent Gallentean aesthete to rail against? Probably. Old blue-water naval vessels tended to have [a blocky and inelegant superstructure on top of a sleek hull](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga-class_cruiser#/media/File:US_Navy_100304-N-6006S-046_The_Ticonderoga-class_guided-missile_cruiser_USS_Bunker_Hill_(CG_52)_transits_in_the_Atlantic_Ocean.jpg) because the superstructure’s physical appearance didn’t affect performance in any appreciable way while the knifelike hull was the best shape for moving quickly through the ocean. As stealth technology began to enter the equation, vessels became [sleeker and more visually appealing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyan-class_corvette#/media/File:%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4_%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F%D0%B6%D1%81%D0%BA.jpg) because that just happened to be the best way to reduce their sensor cross-section, not out of any sense of aesthetics. From what I can see, Caldari ships have always followed the same paradigm. They can be sleek like the Merlin and Corax, or flying bricks like the Ferox and Phoenix, with some, like the Jackdaw and Drake managing to do both at the same time. There’s no rejection of a given design because it’s visually appealing, it’s just that any appeal comes about as a happy coincidence rather than by deliberate action. That said, I’m sure anyone who regularly flies a Moa/Onyx/Eagle/Gila is eternally grateful for practicality and aesthetics finally aligning with one another in YC117. 😝 > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > (CDS-- “Cultural Deliverance Society”? Really, ancient Gallente?) _[twitch]_ Oh, what I wouldn’t do for fifty kilos of nanomass, a time machine, and a list of all the politicians who thought that would be a good idea. Really, it would be for the best… > [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > Pride is a pandemic nowadays, it seems. That’s nothing new, man. Call it pride, call it hubris, it has ever and always been a plague upon civilization. > [@Haria\_Haritimado](#): > > Actually, this moves something very deep in my ‘Caldari heart’ which leads me to say: This is not the efficient way to solve the problems we face. We can do better and we should have the courage to do so. Speaking as someone who lives in the Federation, this is something that many Gallente could _really_ stand to learn. I love my home, but there have been many times when I feel as if large segments of the population need a collective smack upside the head from someone wearing a dropsuit. Too many Gallente think that the Federation is the best nation in New Eden without ever bothering to consider the qualities that make it great in the first place, much less its numerous flaws. They just talk about the Federation like its greatness is an inherent trait instead of something that has to be constantly refined and preserved against the ambitions of powerful individuals who would twist it into something awful, like what happened under Duvalier and the U-Nats. > [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](#): > > The issue with non-entities is the lack of data regarding them beyond acknowledging their existence. They might be an issue, they might not be, there does not exist the data to make an informed decision regarding their status. And that, in itself, is a problem. How can anyone properly judge the severity of such an issue without the proper data? > [@Corvus\_Tacet](#): > > I would just also add that there is no State without Caldari and there is no Caldari without the State The Caldari people existed before the State was ever conceived, and they will not disappear if it collapses. > [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](#): > > I only have to look at independent capsuleers to see the perils of power not moderated by social conventions or political hierarchy. As a very wise man once said, _Whoever desires to found a state and give it laws, must start with assuming that all men are bad and ever ready to display their vicious nature, whenever they may find occasion for it._ Some call him a cynic for his writings, but when you actually take the time to read the material instead of going off of the popular culture interpretation you’ll quickly realize that his works are less “there are no good people” and more “design your government so that the harm an awful person can do is minimized when one inevitably slithers into a position of power.” He also said: _Men never do good unless necessity drives them to it; but when they are free to choose and can do just as they please, confusion and disorder become rampant._ Which is a profoundly accurate description of Capsuleer society if I’ve ever heard one. ---
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/56 "2019-12-21T21:57:57Z")
> [@Valiran\_Teleros](#): > > Could you expand on this? I’m not entirely sure what you mean by it. That meaning and utility are derived from Caldari traditions and culture. The State is ruled by the unwritten laws of social and cultural convention just as much as written laws. For example, there are no laws against an individual pursuing wealth for its own sake, but there are cultural conventions that would see that individual ostracised for their ostentatious behaviour since they would be regarded as placing themselves before the community. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/57 "2019-12-22T04:17:05Z")
> [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](#): > > The common misconception I feel made by outsiders is that Caldari citizens are somehow coerced or tricked in the State to serve it. The notion that the Caldari State represents what its citizens want and their service to it is voluntary and complicit is anathema to such people. I am not sure it’s a misconception, I think it’s a blatant Gallente propaganda. It’s quite obvious for everyone that Citizens do strive to climb corporate ladders, some even take suicide if they’re fired, because they lose something they were working for their whole life. People fight for their employment. There is a constant flow of new citizen to the State, mostly from Client states, but there are outsider immigrants. We have the best living conditions and possibilities for people to realize their potential, that’s why so many people want to work in the State. Obviously, gallente don’t like that people will prefer us to their empty promises: you can’t feed people with freedom, let them sleep in beds made from democracies. Empty promises of hollow ideals cannot be compared to all the real services and possibilities the State offers. That’s why I think it’s a blatant Gallente propaganda, they are again trying to defame us with made up nonsence that is detached from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Valiran\_Teleros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valiran_teleros/32/504787_2.png) [@Valiran\_Teleros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valiran_Teleros)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/58 "2019-12-22T20:58:49Z")
Now I understand. Thank you for your explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 8:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/59 "2020-02-04T08:05:11Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > People fight for their employment. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/e/6/e6e96a4d8d3360eb92c047555bbd12968e2a2723.gif) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 8:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/caldari-corporatism-profit-and-social-benefit/205767/60 "2020-05-04T08:05:21Z")
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